Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.
Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.
The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.
With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.
Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.
"I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they're against."
Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.
"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."
Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.
It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.
At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."
That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."
The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.
The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.
Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.
"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."
Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."
Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.
"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.
In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.
Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."
"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.
Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.
Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.
Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.
Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.
"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."
"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."
With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.
His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.
Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.
As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.
This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).
Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.
Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.
"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."
But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.
Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
ONLINE EXTRA
To read the rest of the series on the evangelical movement by Paul Nussbaum, visit http://go.philly.com/religion
I'm in a New York State of Mind!
Akron - *Tabernacle Baptist Church, 5571 Crittenden Rd., Akron, NY 14001. 716-542-5927.www.geocities.com/tabernaclebaptistchurch [Pastor J. Robert Early tabernaclebaptistchurch@yahoo.com]
Albany - Calvary Baptist Church, 12 Launfal St., Albany, NY 12205. 518-459-2717 www.calvarybaptistministries.org [Pastor Joe Roof pastor@calvarybaptistministries.org]
Arcade/Yorkshire - *Lighthouse Baptist Church, 3113 Main Street PO Box 4, 716-492-5401[Pastor Russell Biber rwbiber@localnet.com]
Astoria (see Queens)
Auburn - **Freedom Baptist Church, PO Box 2021, Auburn, NY 13021. 315 253-6261 [Pastor David Dunbar daviddunbar@juno.com]
Batavia - Calvary Baptist Church, 3515 Galloway Rd., Batavia, NY, 585-344-1898, [Pastor Bruce Balduf]
Baldwinsville - Temple Baptist Church, 2295 Downer Street, Baldwinsville, NY, 13027. 315-638-1159 http://www.templebaptist1611.org/ [Pastor Aaron Overton]
Beaver Dams - Grace Baptist Church, 2032 Chambers Rd., Beaver Dams, NY 14812. 607-962-4864 [Pastor David Maulucci] http://www.gbcbeaverdams.com
Black River - *First Baptist Church. 122 Maple St., Black River, NY 13612. 315-773-4091 [Pastor Cliff Bennett calvarycrier@aol.com]
Brocton - Lake Erie Baptist Church, 9500 Lake Av., Brocton, NY 14063. 716-792-6575 [Pastor Gary Nutt]
Bronx - Bronx Building Baptist Church, 58 E. 208th St., Bronx, NY 10467. 212-881-6811 [Pastor Alan Davis]
Brooklyn - Bay Ridge Baptist Church, 6701 4th Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11220. 718-238-0555 [Pastor Jerry Walker]
Brooklyn - Bethel Baptist Fellowship, 2307 Voorhies Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11235. 718-615-1002 www.bethelbaptistfellowship.org [Pastors Jim Bickel jbrom116@aol.com, Clark Micklethwaite rom116@flash.net]
Brooklyn - Euclid Baptist Church, Drew St. & McKinley Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11203. 718-647-4635 [Pastor Fred Ludwig]
Brooklyn - First Spanish Baptist Church, 301-5 Pacific St., Brooklyn, NY 11201. 718-852-6046. [Pastor David Acevedo]
Brooklyn - International Baptist Church, Coney Island Av., Brooklyn New York 631-948-8467 [Pastor John Morgan]
Brooklyn - Lefferts Park Baptist Church, 7524 14th Ave., Brooklyn, NY 11228. 718-232-4347 [Pastor David Schuler]
Brooklyn - *Memorial Baptist Church, 401 16th St., Brooklyn, NY 11215. 718-768-1847 or 718-768-7272 [Pastor Steve Christopher]
Canisteo - Adrian Baptist Church, Rt. 119, Canisteo, NY 14823. 607-698-4643 [Pastor John Karle]
Chenango Forks - Triangle Baptist Church, 882 South St., Chenango Forks, NY 13746. 607-692-2093 [Pastor Daniel Thorp]
Conewango Valley - Conewango Baptist Church, 5443 Route 241, Conewango, Valley, NY 14726. 716-287-3911, Pastor Matt S. Austin conewangobaptist@juno.com
Dresden - Good Samaritan Baptist Church, 54 Main St., Dresden, NY 14441. 315-536-0878 www.linkny.com/edrice4 [Pastor Edward Rice edrice4@linkny.com]
East Worcester - First Baptist Church, PO Box 757, 108 County Hwy 38, East Worcester, NY 12064. 607-397-1714 [Pastor Paul Timmerman preacherpal@yahoo.com]
Eden - Faith Bible Baptist Church 8688 S. Main St., Eden, NY 14057. www.fbbc.com [Pastor Arthur F. Kohl]
Elmont - ***Bible Baptist Church, 779 Elmont Rd., Elmont, NY 11003. 516-569-3191 www.biblebaptistchurchelmont.org [Pastor James Barker jbarker4@optonline.net]
Elmsford - Grace Baptist Church, Elmsford, NY 10523. 914-592-7510 [Pastor Joel Grassi]
Farmington - *Country Bible Baptist Church, 130 Hook Rd., Farmington, NY, 14502. [Ray Drake, Pastor] 315-986-2293, kjvray@rochester, rr. com
Frewsburg - First Baptist Church, 17 E. Main St., PO Box 622, Frewsburg, NY 14738. 716-569-2620 [Pastor Michael Stone livelystones@juno.com]
Fulton - *Grace Bible Baptist Church, 21 Flood Dr., Fulton, NY 13069. 315-598-3072 http://home.twcny.rr.com/gracebible [Pastor Paul Komrowski preach@twcny.rr.com]
Gloversville - Adirondack Baptist Church, 1431 State Hwy 29, Gloversville, NY 12078. 518-883-4125 [Pastor Brian Norman abcny@localnet.com]
Granville - Truthville Baptist Church, Rt. 1 Box 16-B No., Granville, NY 12854. 518-642-2517 [Pastor John Knaus]
Hamburg - Old Time Baptist Church, 6790 Gowanda State Rd., Hamburg, NY 14075. 716-649-4974 [Pastor Louis J. Guadagno pljg@adelphia.net]
Hilton - Friendship Bible Baptist Church, 124 Railroad Ave., Hilton, NY 14468. 717-352-1381 [Pastor Samuel Frustochi]
Holley - Old Paths Bible Baptist Church, 4782 Hall Road, Holley, NY, (585) 638-7777, www.opbbc.org [Pastors Joseph Cammilleri and Jay Folk]
Horseheads - Bible Baptist Church. [Pastor Alex Raducz] (lordship salvation)
Hudson Falls - New Life Baptist Church, 62 Main St., Hudson Falls, NY 12839. 518-746-6064 www.nlbcministries.org [Pastor Joshua R. Miller nlbc@verizon.net]
Irving - *Independent Baptist Church, 483 Mechanic St., Irving, NY 14081. 716-934-6809 www.webt.com/ibc [Pastor Patrick Burke]
Kennedy - *First Baptist Church, P. O. Box 33, Kennedy, NY 14747. [Pastor Jim Markle p-jim@juno.com]
Liberty - Liberty Baptist Church,7 N. Main St., Liberty, NY 12754. 914-292-2116 www.libertybaptistchurch.thechurchzone.com [Pastor Robert C. Nadelen Sr.]
Liverpool - Buckley Road Baptist Church, 4962 Buckley Rd., Liverpool, NY 13088. 315-457-0570 [Pastor Dan Smith]
Locke - Milan Baptist Church, Mains St., Locke, NY 13092. 315-497-1764 [Pastor Tony Melia]
Lockport - First Bible Baptist Church, 949 Lincoln Av., Lockport, NY 14094. 716-433-1611 [Pastor Scott Strobel]
Lockport - Antioch Bible Baptist Church, 3984 Lockport-Olcott Road, Lockport, NY 14094, 585-889-5792 [Pastor Steven Pawley spawley@rochester.rr.com]
Lyons - Maranatha Baptist Church, 8721 Travell Rd., Lyons, NY 14489. 315-946-4660 [Pastor Michael Marshall]
Lynbrook - *Hendrickson Ave. Bible Church, 72 Edward St., Lynbrook, NY 11563. 516-599-4645 www.hendricksonavenuebiblechurch.com [Pastor George C. Bruns habc1@excite.com]
Malta - Fellowship Baptist Church, 172 Eastline Rd., Malta, NY 12019. 518-899-6404 [Pastor James Brown]
Manhatten - Heritage Baptist Church, mtg.@ Village Community School, 272 W 10th St., NYC. 212-947-5316 www.hbcnyc.org [Pastor Matthew Recker mrecker@hbcnyc.org]
Marcellus - Faith Baptist Church, PO Box 5, Marcellus, NY 13108. 315-488-0634 [Pastor Mike Kenny preacher2u@hotmail.com]
Mayville - *First Baptist Church, 59 S. Erie St., Mayville, NY 14757. 716-753-2842 [Pastor Ray Mitchell]
Mayville - Maranatha Baptist Church, 43 Academy St., Mayville, NY 14757. [Pastor Norman Burdick]
Medina - Grace Baptist Church, 120 Park Av. , Medina NY,14606. 716-798-3096 [Pastor Edward Cullen Jr. ECullen1@aol.com]
Mexico - First Baptist Church, 4369 Church St., Mexico, NY 13114. 315-963-7162 [Pastor Bill O'Neil woneil@twcny.rr.com ]
Middleburgh - Valley Bible Baptist Church, RD#2, Box 21, Rt. 30 N., Middleburgh, NY, 12122. 518-827-4541 [Pastor John Mills]
Montgomert - Faith Baptist Church, 34 E. Searsville Rd., Montgomert, NY 12549. 914-457-3866 [Pastor William Chapman]
Moravia - *Sempronius Baptist Church, 6500 Frazier Rd., Moravia, NY 13118-9536 315-496-2245[Pastor Dennis Grimes grimesfamily@worldnet.att.net]
Newburgh - Valley Bible Baptist Church, 101A Carter Av., Newburgh, NY 12550. 914-562-4891 [Pastor Garland Carey]
New Woodstock - Open Door Baptist Church, 3019 Rt. 13, New Woodstock, NY 13122. 315-662-3215 www.open-doorbaptist.org [Pastor Joseph Riggs pastorriggs@open-doorbaptist.org]
North Granville - Calvary Baptist Church, PO Box 96, North Granville, NY 12854. 518-642-2219 [Pastor Carlos Galvan]
North Tonawanda - Lighthouse Baptist Church, 383 Wheatfield St., North Tonawanda, New York 14120. 716-693-8252 [Pastor Dave Costantino]
Olean - Bethel Baptist Church, 819 E. State St., Olean, NY 14760. 716-372-8588 [Pastor Mike Pearson]
Osceola - Valley Baptist Church, Gregory Rd., Osceola, NY. 315-348-4550 [Pastor David W. Bower dmbower@westelcom.com]
Palmyra - *Heritage Baptist Church, 2367 Palmyra-Marion Rd., Palmyra, NY 14522. 315-597-2222 [Pastor Jerry Wilson]
Parish - Colosse Baptist Church, Rt. 11, Parish, NY 13131. 315-625-7485 www.christian411.net/colosse [Pastor Timothy Shumer colossebc@juno.com]
Peekskill - Annsville Baptist Church, 705 Hudson Av., Peekskill, NY 10566. 914-739-3617 www.annsvillebaptist.org [Pastor Ron Brown rrbrown01@aol.com]
Penfield - *Southeast Bible Baptist Church, 1850 Fairport Nine Mile Point Rd., Penfield, NY 14526. 716-388-0850 http://gvbis.org/sebbc [Pastor Bruce Craig president@gvbis.org]
Plattekill - Berean Baptist Church, PO Box K (off Rt. 32 at Church St.), Platteville, NY. 914-566-4650 [Pastor Timothy Braun tsb1026@aol.com]
Plattsburgh - *Born Again Baptist Church, 9 Sorrell Ave., Plattsburgh, NY 12901. 518-293-8555 [Pastor Scott Rabideau Sr. BornAgn2@Juno.com]
Plattsburgh - Bible Baptist Church, 4635 State Route 9, Plattsburgh, NY 12901. 518-563-4098 http://members.aol.com/bbcplatts/ [Pastor Fry bbcplatts@aol.com]
Porter Corners - Victory Bible Baptist Church, 4532 Rt. 9 N, Porter Corners, NY 12859. 518-893-7059 www.victorybiblebaptistchurch.com [Pastor Timothy Delello timd1011@yahoo.com]
Pulaski - First Baptist Church, RFD 17157 Co. Rt. 41 A, Pulaski, NY 13142. 315-298-4244 [Pastor Terry Plaugher]
Queens (Astoria) - *Open Door Bible Baptist Church, 30-85 35th St., Astoria, NY 11103. 718-728-4410 [Pastor Peter Montoro miracle35st@mindspring.com]
Queens (Richmond Hill) - *Gospel Baptist Church, 97-02 129th St., Queens, New York 11419-1512 718-846-3681 [Pastor Kevin Renfrow GospelBaptist@yahoo.com]
Queens (Ridgewood) - Ridgewood Baptist Church. 64-11 Catalpa Av., Ridgewood, NY 11385 718-386-1830 [Pastor Filip Dinca]
Renesselaer - Open Bible Baptist Church, 950 Third St., Renesselaer, NY 12144. 518-279-1988 [Pastor Glen Hamilton]
Rochester - *Calvary Bible Baptist Church, 746 Norton St., Rochester, NY 14621-3543. 585-338-2430 [Pastor Fred Simpson calvarybbc@cs.com]
Rochester - Chili Bible Baptist Church, 224 Chestnut Ridge Rd., Rochester, NY 14624. 585-227-6088 [Pastor Hal Roscoe cbbckjv@juno.com]
Rochester - Liberty Bible Baptist Church, 650 N. Landing Rd., Rochester, NY 14625. 585-248-2732 [Pastor Daniel F. Mager gardan@frontiernet.net]
Rochester - *Lighthouse Bible Baptist Church, 1049 Winton Road N., Rochester, NY 14609. 585-288-3243 [Pastor James Gugino]
Rochester - Victory in the City Baptist Church, 1318 Culver Rd., Rochester, NY 14609. 585-224-8482 www.ibnet.org/VCBCrny.htm [Pastor Ronald Morse]
Rome - Friendship Baptist Church, 4649 Rome-New London Rd., Rome, NY 13440. www.friendshipbaptist.us [Pastor Jeff Carpenter]
Sayville - *First Baptist Church of Sayville, 324 Lakeland Av., Sayville, NY 11782. 516-589-7842 www.ibnet.org/FBCsny.htm [Pastor John Graf fbchurch@vdot.net]
Schenectady - Sonrise Bible Baptist Church, 1082 Dunnsville Rd., Schenectady, NY 12306. 518-356-0963 www.SonriseBible.org [Pastor Robert E. Hart SonriseBC@aol.com]
Seneca Falls - *Seneca Bible Baptist Church, 1859 Auburn Rd., Seneca Falls, NY 13148. 315-568-9100 http://senecabiblebaptist.org [Pastor Terry Fenton sbbckjv@msn.com]
Stanley - Grace Bible Baptist Church, 2150 Main St. #586, Stanley, NY 14561. 716-526-6023 [Pastor Michael Martin]
Staten Island - *First Bible Baptist Church, 6200 Amboy Rd., Staten Island, NY 10309. 718-948-7202 www.fbcny.org [Pastor Mike Veach MVeachNY@aol.com]
Stony Brook - International Baptist Church, 1266 N. Country Rd., Stony Brook, New York 11790. 631-948-8467 [Pastor John Morgan]
Syracuse - Cross Cultural Baptist Church, 1201 South Av., Syracuse, NY 13207. 315-426-9240 [Pastor Jim Dixon revjad@msn.com]
Syracuse - Open Door Baptist Church, 610 Willis Ave., Syracuse, NY 13204. 315-487-4956 [Pastor David Maulucci]
Troy - *Grace Baptist Church, 736 Third Avenue, Troy, NY 12182 518-233-1334 [Pastor John Koletas JKoletas@aol.com ]
Thiells - *Rockland Bible Baptist Church, 73 Suffern Ln, Thiells, NY 10984. [Pastor Henry Tew 914-947-2871]
Watertown – Maranatha Baptist Church, 622 Boyd St., Watertown, NY 13601. 315-786-1881 http://mbbchurch.homestead.com/ [Pastor Mark Roper]
West Seneca - First Baptist Church {Note: This church sometimes uses versions other than the King James Bible.}
Whitesboro - Harts Hill Baptist Church, 5266 Wilcox Rd., Whitesboro, NY 13492. 315-736-4774 [Pastor David McCoy]
Willseyville - PO Box 31, Willseyville, NY 13864. 607-659-7118 [Pastor Lee Mead]
Wilton - Wilton Baptist Church, 755 Saratoga, Rd.(rt.9) Wilton, NY 12831. Phone#518-583-2736 [Pastor Todd Falk]
Wingdale - Dover First Baptist Church, RR1 Box 146, Wingdale, NY 12594. 914-832-6119 [Pastor Anthony Bacino]
Woodside - Woodside Community Baptist Church, 41-01 58th St., Woodside, NY 11377. 718-426-9153 [Pastor Randall Rose]
Yonkers - Hudson View Baptist Church, 170 Hudson Terrace, Yonkers, NY 10701. 914-968-7047 www.hudsonviewbc.org [Pastor William R. Dierking wdierking@juno.com]
What part of FL are you in? I have some friends in Molino.
Polk County, near Cypress Gardens in Winter Haven
wayyyyy past Molino!
My friend Bro. Ed Hicks is the pastor of Lighthouse Baptist there. He has some good sermons that a friend of ours posted on Sermon Audio.
Where does it say that it is wrong?
Almost all of what goes on in a Church is man made. God gives guidelines in his word, but then leaves the rest to us. That is one of the differences between Christianity and the legalistic systems like Islam that tell you when to pray and where to point your head.
The most free people on the planet are Christians. We may each worship God in our own way, within pretty broad, in some respects, guidelines. The rest is useless arguing, which is unbecoming of those who say they are His..
There was also no cultural context in his message...but there was a sin context to his preaching...If one was unbelieving in Christ's resurrection and Christ as the Messiah, Paul proved these in Scripture and called for faith and repentance of sin.
If one was an idol-worshipper and/or following the philosophies of this world, Paul proved in Scripture who the true Living God really was, and what the Truth was, and called for faith and repentance.
His message was always one of Christ crucified, Christ resurrected and a call to faith and repentance of sin and he proved it with Scripture...no matter who the audience was.
His method was always preaching/reasoning from Scripture.
Show me a purpose driven pastor that would address, or does address, their Sunday morning unchurched/churched crowd in the manner that Paul addressed unbelievers...Rick Warren doesn't...My PD pastor didn't. None I know do.
Perform a comparitive analysis between Paul's methodology and message from the Book of Acts vs. the purpose driven methodology and message.
In the Book of Acts, Paul:
* Goes outside of the church and in all cases preaches/reasons from Scripture.
* Strongly confronts sin and calls for faith and repentance
* Does not seek to be culturally relevant in music, art, dance, entertainment and so forth
* Is not concerned about offending Jews/Greeks/unbelievers with the precise Gospel message of sin, the cross/Christ's death, repentance and salvation
* Does not seek to make unbelievers feel comfortable
* Does not seek to make the Gospel message relevant/appealing to unbelievers by emphasizing the "benefits" of Christianity
* Does not attempt to win the lost by preaching soft messages about family, sex, money, relationships and so forth
* Does not in any way shape the Gospel to appeal to the felt needs of the unbeliever
* Does not associate with, or cooperate with, false religions or false teachers, nor does he incorporate their religious practices in order to appeal to a wider audience
* Does not take a survey to find out what the unbelieving Jews and Greeks want out of worship, and church, and then establish a church around those desires
* Evangelism does not take place in church, nor is there evangelism worship...When Paul goes to church, he reports on what God is doing and edifies the believers
* Does not preach a purchased message formerly preached by somebody else
Clearly, the PD method and message is different than the method and message in the Book of Acts.
Again, when Paul went into a synagogue, he preached/reasoned from Scripture and called for faith in Christ and repentance of sin...When Rick Warren goes into the synagogue, he teaches them purpose driven principles that will assist them in adding to their numbers and continuing in their false teaching, sin and unbelief.
When Paul addressed unbelieving philosophies/religion, he confronted it as sin and reasoned/preached from Scripture. Whereas, Rick Warren implements unbelieving philosophies/religion and their practices.
There is no comparison between Paul's ministry and a purpose driven ministry.
He went to the same city more than once.
yep, and told them the truth even when it got him in chains. How much flack from the world is Rick Warren getting? The flack he's getting is just from us little people who have a passion for the WORD (and then the world, not the other way around) who have gotten stepped on, and we're not important.
"These men are advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice." and "They are all defying Ceasar's decrees, saying there is another king, one called Jesus."
And I highly doubt that today's purpose driven preaching would get the above repsonses that Paul's preaching did...it certainly wouldn't get a pastor beaten, stoned, imprisoned and/or executed.
I believe that the Greeks would especially like the current sermon series Desparate Households (a spin-off from the tv show Desperate Housewives). I know they would have preffered the tv show and the associated sermon series over Paul's fundamentalist preaching.
Sex, in sinful/unbelieving crowds, always trumps preaching on Christ crucified, Christ resurrected, sin, and judgement.
While I agree it is not needed, it is also not necessarily wrong to do it that way, but it does tend to make people focus on the people up there (having been up there regularly myself all my life, pretty much) - and be distracted by what they personally know about those people, or whatever rumors may be flying about them. That congregation should be reminded of that error regularly so they can be responsible in their own hearts to avoid it... but I've never seen it done very well. I read a great article yesterday on contemporary music in the church by Scott Macintyre at woodandsteel.net. He has some very gently written and very rational explanations of why the purpose driven movement is unscriptural and draws very clear lines on the fallacies and distractions in both sides of the argument. I heartily recommend his site. Hopefully I won't crash it by doing this. :-)
Here is the one on worship music:
Contemporary Music in the Church - Culprit, Symptom, or Innocent Bystander?
Incidentally, I'm not terribly fond of the level of professionalism at Saddleback either. Sometimes the off-pitch makes me cringe and distracts me
[aside: yes, I can hear it quite often, even if others can't, I have a piano tuner's ear, and tune my own piano because I can't bear to shell out money for a mediocre job. Of course, that means I rarely have time to have a quiet enough house to do it myself anyway! But at least we aren't spending the money < smile > and I am not saying that I never sing off-pitch, especially when the balance is off and I can't hear the instruments.]
But as I say, that is irrelevant to me, if I am in a church where the truth is foremost. The only reason I pick on it is because they consider it so important. My point is, they are just as imperfect as everyone else and there are those of us that hear and see that it's mostly smoke and mirrors.
>>When you are on a worship team, your primary goal is not to worship God<<
The primary goal of ALL CHRISTIANS is to worship God and give Him glory - regardless of "occupation".
I can't help but wonder how many praise and worship rock bands are just comprised of people who always dreamed of being a rock star, and not people who are interested in giving God all the glory He is due.
It's been my experience that the more elaborate a production is, the more ego is involved.
I've often wondered why contemporary Christian musicians receive any personal money from their album sales and concerts. They're just as expensive as secular music. Seems to me they'd be interested in just covering expenses.
Yep, and he wrote letters rebuking those 'someone elses' and warning the believers if these 'someone elses' weren't preaching the truth. Elsewhere he says he doesn't mind what motives they have for preaching the Gospel As long as the Gospel is preached. So, the question is, is the gospel being preached accurately?
Read 2 Peter 2 for a small sample of what Paul spent much of his time writing. Kinda nasty and harsh if you ask me. He should be put on church trial for that sin. And, I'm sure he was ostracized, in the churches which chose to follow the leaders he was referring to there.
Balaam heard the voice of the Lord... but that did not mean he was very obedient to him:
22But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.
23When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand, the donkey turned off from the way and went into the field; but Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back into the way.
24Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path of the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side.
25When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed herself to the wall and pressed Balaam's foot against the wall, [ouch!!! if you have ever had that happen you know how painful it is] so he struck her again.
26The angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right hand or the left.
27When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam was angry and struck the donkey with his stick.
28And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?"
29Then Balaam said to the donkey, "Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now."
30The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?" And he said, "No."
31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw (U)the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed all the way to the ground.
32The angel of the LORD said to him, "Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was (contrary to me.
33"But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live."
34Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, "(W)I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back."
35But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you." So Balaam went along with the leaders of Balak.
I can only pray that these church leaders get on to v 34 and 35... because I do not want the Lord to bring judgement on them. Why is it that Balaam heard from the Lord but then couldn't see him standing in his way? Is it because he was focused on something other than obedience to God? (e.g. satisfying his earthly longing for status, approval, and money which he was promised from Balak if he would do something God didn't want him to do.) God told Balaam to go ahead and finish the journey, but to only speak what he told him. Apparently Balaam had in mind to speak something else, which is why his way was perverse before the Lord.
But as you know Balaam again turned away from the Lord later on, continually mixing pagan ways with the Lord's ways, of which mixing the Lord does not approve and for which, when the Israelites were being righteous, they had put him to death according to the law. I'm not suggesting violence is still the way we deal with false teachers by any means. But public rebuke and marking of false teachers is commanded and exemplified all throughout the Bible. Read Jude... he was originally going to write a wonderful uplifting letter but felt led to write a warning instead. It's pretty harsh, again. And note where the false teachers come from ... from 'among you.'
I can't believe you just said that.
It does seem more like a performance.
See, the worship is FOR God. Not for us.
We don't need people up there "leading us." We don't need performances.
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
No "worship leaders" or performances there.
"No "worship leaders" or performances there."
No, but that is not describing a modern worship service. This is one of the scriptures used by the Church of Christ to make the case that using ANY musical instruments in church is against the word of God.
Regarding this sort of stuff, there is just way too much nit-picking, and that nit-picking is in the "spirit" of exactly what the religious leaders of Jesus' time were trying to do.
One can obey the scripture you quoted on one occasion, and then do other things, like have a worship service or Sunday school class on another occasion.
Keep in mind that I am just talking about how services are run, not the content of the words in those services.
Thank you for the thread and post.
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