Here's your dour-friendly/seeker unfriendly church:
Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
LAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.
Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.
The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.
With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.
Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.
"I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they're against."
Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.
"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."
Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.
It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.
At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."
That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."
The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.
The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.
Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.
"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."
Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."
Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.
"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.
In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.
Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."
"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.
Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.
Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.
Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.
Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.
"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."
"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."
With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.
His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.
Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.
As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.
This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).
Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.
Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.
"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."
But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.
Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
ONLINE EXTRA
To read the rest of the series on the evangelical movement by Paul Nussbaum, visit http://go.philly.com/religion
That's the difference between a seeker friendly church and a dour friendly church.
Post 270
Post 420
it's not "just" a verse, it's an entire theme. 1 Peter, 1 & 2 Corinthians, 1 & 2 Timothy ought to be enough to get you started on the need for order, structure, holiness and reverence whithin the church body, church building, and all manner of fellowship in the Lord's name.
I will, however, repeat my still unanswered question regarding the surveys, as originally posted in #344. The question that all of you have artfully dodged:
"If you were to ask the congregants of such a church why they go to that particular church, what do you think the responses would look like?
Probably something like:
"I get to wear jeans"
"I like the music"
"I can drink a soda during the service"
"I can act casual"
"The sermons aren't long and preachy"
"No boring hymns"
All translate into fleshly needs, and I am not simply assuming. These were the responses received by our former pastor when he implemented the PDC model at our old church. He then sought to change the service to accommodate.
The very first step in Rick Warren's plan is to conduct a survey and find out why people in an area don't like church, then make the necessary changes to suit them. To make church more attractive to them. Correct?
The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave.
You've now made worship conditional, basd upon their desires and comfort. It becomes "If I can't wear jeans, then I won't go." If ___, then ___. Conditional worship.
What you win them with is what you win them to."
Please feel fre to re-read as needed, and answer when convenient.
Seeker-sensitivity breeds conditional worship and spiritual laziness.
Yes, if you really read what I said, there IS bait and switch. And yes, we are supposed to love one another and explain God's love - for that is PART of the gospel. But that isn't what I showed to be the bait and switch part.
A church is to practice the love of Christ and to preach the gospel of Christ.
Exactly. The gospel of Christ is about His love saving the poor, wretched sinners who are lost. If a church service does not explain what it means to be lost to God - to be unable to be in His presence, to understand how evil our sin is, then they really cannot grasp His love - for they will see the love of God in man's eyes, not God's. There is no reason to really and truly repent. On the other hand, it is also wrong to preach fire and brimstone without speaking of His love. Both are wrong.
What is bait and switch would be anyplace where they proclaim themselves Christian, and a person arrives who is NOT greeted, who is NOT made to feel welcome, who is NOT introduced to the gospel in every conceivable manner at the church's disposition.
I don't disagree - but that was not the point. Although introducing the gospel in EVERY conceivable manner would just about require reading through the entire bible to them, for it is the ultimate presentation of the gospel in every conceivable manner for it is pure and complete. :) But it is also a bait and switch for those who call themselves Christian and don't explain what being saved FROM is as part of the salvation message.
As Marlowe says, there are some pretty "dour" places out there.....grim people, grim relating, grim outlook, grim proclamation, and grim grimmaces.
So? What does that have to do with what I have said. Again I will say that it is bait and switch if only part of the gospel is presented if they lure someone to church saying they proclaim all of it. It works both ways.
But my original point, never addressed, is that the church building is not where evangelism is supposed to be centered - it is for worship of believers (and if non-believers are there, then they may be convinced by our worship). Each believer is to be always lifting up the name of Christ Jesus to those both saved and unsaved so that His word and His truth will be heard. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who bring good tidings. It is not "beautiful upon the mountains are the the feet of those who drag others into the temple/tabernacle". And by promoting such seeker services where people will be comfortable has an effect on the individual believer to not evangelize the gospel, but to just "evangelize" the church service. And that is very very wrong.
Somewhere you just don't seem to be getting what I am saying.
Here's your dour-friendly/seeker unfriendly church:
But you don't seem to be seeking what he is saying at all. ;)
I don't suppose you have a scripture verse that says that the church building should not be used for evangelical purposes?
So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :)
That's simply inaccurate, biblically.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in other languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. 25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church.
I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
That's simply inaccurate, biblically.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in other languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all. 25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church.
I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
My answer of a moment ago applies here just as well: So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :) The key word is centered. For crying out loud, of course evangelism happens in the building. But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
Can't you just say no?
This verse by the Apostle Paul CLEARLY endorses doing evangelism in church. I challenge you to show even ONE New Testament verse with the theme: "Thou shalt not evanglize in church."
My answer of a moment ago applies here just as well: So? That has nothing to do with what we are saying. I could put up a picture of a straw man here. A non-seeker sensitive church does not equal unloving or dour. Sigh...
You are trying to say that if A does NOT = B, then B = C or A = C and that is poor reasoning -- math and otherwise. :) The key word is centered. Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! For crying out loud, of course evangelism happens in the building. (insert straw man picture / )
But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.
In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.
Can't you just say no?
No. ;)
On what authority do you assert that active evangelism ought not to take place on church property or in a church building?
Marlowe, you're in no position to be demanding answers from people when you still haven't answered the question pointed to you yesterday evening. Secondly, even when you're shown the answer, you still ignore it because it's not the answer you're looking for.
You dance around the main topic, while taking one point from an entire list, and attempting to start a new argument from that, without answering to the original.
It's downright annoying, not to mention dishonest and somewhat rude.
So?....straw man
Sorry, Lupie, but that is irrational. The verse directly addresses the issue you raised.
You are wrong, biblically, and should stop holding to the opinion that evangelism in church is inappropriate.
I'm sorry. Which question was that?
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