Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
You are right, but when the sheep who think they are goats see how good the feast is they will come into their own.
I'm not comment on anything else except his choice of words. I assume he is smart enough to know how that phrase would be taken. I am sure he got a lot of approval for it in some quarters.
If you were to ask the congregants of such a church why they go to that particular church, what do you think the responses would look like?
Probably something like:
"I get to wear jeans"
"I like the music"
"I can drink a soda during the service"
"I can act casual"
"The sermons aren't long and preachy"
"No boring hymns"
All translate into fleshly needs, and I am not simply assuming. These were the responses received by our former pastor when he implemented the PDC model at our old church. He then sought to change the service to accommodate.
The very first step in Rick Warren's plan is to conduct a survey and find out why people in an area don't like church, then make the necessary changes to suit them. To make church more attractive to them. Correct?
The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave.
You've now made worship conditional, basd upon their desires and comfort. It becomes "If I can't wear jeans, then I won't go." If ___, then ___. Conditional worship.
What you win them with is what you win them to.
Just like the pop music. Who are they worshipping? the God of the Bible - the God of love, judgement, wrath, and mercy - the God who commands us to flee from our sins?
Or, are they worshipping the kindly, nonjudgemental, psychiatrist grandpa-god of contemporary desires?
If those musicians were "won" to a theology of cheap grace and man-centered worship, then that's what they'll write and produce. There's a lot of fluff in modern pop-christianity music - it's largely a mile wide but an inch deep. You can't say the same for the great hymns of old - it's like comparing Main King Lobster to genea can of tuna.
Now, don't get me wrong. I do enjoy some of the contemporary music, and it certainly does have it's place, but not in the worship service. It's better than listening to gangsta-rap and
Even if bringing in the goats gets in the way of "true worship", it is not an option. We are commanded to compel them to come in. In Calvin's day it was easy to get them to come in. They were threatened with flogging if they didn't come in. So there was no need to entertain the goats, because if they fell asleep during the sermon they would be flogged. They pretended to be sheep to keep from being beaten.
Nowadays we are still under a commandment to go out into the streets and compel them (goats, sheep, pigs) to come in. But we can't flog them if they refuse. We are also called to be fishers of men and fishermen use lures. Thus if we are going to compel them to come in we have to give them some reason to enter besides threat of violence.
Some have chosen to lure believers with the threat of a friendly smile, good music, and a decent cup of joe. If it compels some to come in, then it is in line with the commandment. If they are sheep, they will stay with the flock. If they are goats... well we may not ever know. God will separate the sheep from the goats. Or don't you believe that?
During the reformation the Magistrates would often order the legal authorities to go out into an area and find out why people weren't going to church. If they weren't infirm or on their death beds, they would be taken to the center of town where they would be flogged and placed in stocks. After a few visits from the law, these people would be very motivated to go to church every Sunday.
The motive of people back then to attend church was quite often for "personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence." The powers that be set the standard for their future attendance.
Nobody complained back then about a concern that the church was filling up with goats. They fed the sheep and at the same time entertained the goats by keeping them awake by the fear of pain and humiliation.
It is not a choice. We are commanded to go into the streets and compel them to come in. We can't threaten them with violence. But we can offer them a smile and a cup of coffee and a promise that the experience may just change their lives.
How about "I come to the garden alone,
while the dew is still on the roses,
and the voice I hear,
falling on my ear,
the Son of God discloses.
And He walks with me,
and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own,
And the joy we share,
As we tarry there,
None other has ever known"
done to sensual waltz time,
And "The Lyrics:
Who am I that You are mindful of me
That You hear me when I call
Is it true that You are thinking of me
How You love me it's amazing
(Chorus)
I am a friend of God
I am a friend of God
I am a friend of God
He calls me friend
God Almighty, Lord of Glory
You have called me friend
(Repeat Chorus)
He calls me friend
He calls me friend..."
Not done to waltz time, just an energizing beat.
The first has a nice warm sentimental verse but lousey theology and the second has deep theological content and an up beat rhythm. Which do you prefer?
Church is the goal of evangelism, not the place for it.
Tell that to me and millions of others who were yanked off the street and compelled to come to church and who met Christ there.
Wherever two or more are gathered... Where better to meet the Lord? Where better to hear his voice? He's there already.
When Christ healed, he was not saving them from eternal damnation. He was responding to their "felt needs".
And trust me, I am no fan of the prosperity doctrine. And every large church I have been in gives me the willies (I've been to Willow Creek and Overlake). That said, If I believe a shoe here fits Warren, I'll say so. If i don't believe it does, then I'll say that too. No man is pure evil nor pure good. The only one was/is Jesus. Even the apostle Paul understood his own weaknesses.
I have yet to see any quotes by Warren here that are doctrinally incorrect, where he is trying to be quite specific. I have seen INFERENCES that would make them doctrinally incorrect. But that is different issue. And until he has the opportunity to defend himself against the monologues here I will withhold my judgement.
Two things. I am concerned when people here use the term "unbiblical methods". Second, I don't understand what one means by "watered down". If you were to take some chapters out of Galations and asked them to stand on their own, they too would appear "watered down". But they are not intended to stand alone. Like any preacher, Warrens comments that are quoted here are presented within a certain context to address a particular issue.
I am still seing no smoking gun on any major doctrinal issues. Most of it is "style" stuff.
"I assume he is smart enough to know how that phrase would be taken."
Yes, within the context. Is the context included in the quotes offered here? Are the remarks off the cuff or written speaches. It matters - before I will publicly villify any man.
Based on the attitudes of a lot of posters here, It seems as though we have a lot of Jehovas Witnesses present.
LOL great response
I hope so :)
One of the frozen chosen
They were men that saw an erosion of the gospel and took up the cause to preserve it.
I think it (the gospel) is once again under attack, but now the people that claim the name "fundamentalists" are actually not in unity on many things.
"Because the dead in Christ shall rise first.
I hope so :)
One of the frozen chosen"
Great sense of humor, but then living where you do frozen is an accurate term.
Needless to say, it has been quite a while since I read anything in the "new testament," but I don't recall women's suffrage being a big topic. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anything about suffrage (or "democracy") at all.
If I had to guess, I'd say he's exhausted all his own ideas, biblical knowledge and education. After becoming suddenly successful in his original area of expertise (if you can call it that), he has surrounded himself with advisors and sycophants who have groomed him for mass-consumption - telling him what press releases to make, what social projects to pursue, and what market segments to appeal to, to increase his influence and, market share.
Except among the fundamentalists, of course. Rick's made it plain he doesn't want our money.
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