Intelligent Design Gains Momentum, Raises Eyebrows on Campuses

Religion News Service (VIA Beliefnet.com) ^ | 1/5/06 | By Sarah Price Brown

[flevit]

When Hannah Maxson started an intelligent design club at Cornell University last fall, a handful of science majors showed up for the first meeting. Today, the high-profile club boasts more than 80 members.

Until recently, the nationwide debate over whether intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution was centered primarily in public elementary and high-school science classes. In Dover, Pa., for example, parents won a legal fight against a school board decision to teach intelligent design in biology classes. A new school board formally ditched the intelligent design curriculum Tuesday (Jan. 3).

Now the discussion is spilling over onto university campuses. At nearly 30 public and private universities across the country, students have started clubs aimed at promoting intelligent design. The clubs, sponsored by the Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center (IDEA), a small, nonprofit organization based in San Diego, have been gaining members and visibility.

[Antoninus]

You really don't know much about satirical humor, do you? Does the term "get a clue" mean anything to you?

I am also not a relativist when it comes to humor. I tend not to laugh when a joke ain't funny.

I notice that, as expected, you completely ducked my question...

[flevit]

perhaps your logic is ironic:

if "logic" is nothing more than a product of the human mind...it is by definition, subjective.

[js1138]

Does the term "irreducible complexity" mean anything to you?

It means the same thing it did in 1802 when Paley published "Natural Theology". It means that God is is in the gaps.

The problem is that the gaps keep getting narrower, and fewer and fewer things appear irreducible.

[Antoninus]

The problem is that the gaps keep getting narrower, and fewer and fewer things appear irreducible.

Good! That's the whole point of science. If they can make a compelling case that nothing is irreducibly complex, more power to them!

They still have yet to explain how life arose originally from nonlife, however. That one's a real puzzler.

[jboot]

Perhaps you've confused the word "conservative" with the words "Fundamentalist Christian Young Earth Creationist." The two words are not synonymous.

Hmmm. I know I'm butting in, but I'd like to see the "conservatives" try to win a national election without the "Fundamentalist Christian Young Earth Creationists."

It would be an eye-opening experience for them.

[jboot]

"[Pat Robertson's] not quite at "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God" level of vitriol yet. Give him a few years."

Apples and oranges. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is one of the greatest sermons of the last millennia, and Pat Robertson is a nincompoop.

[js1138]

They still have yet to explain how life arose originally from nonlife, however. That one's a real puzzler.

Are you willing to abandon your faith when this happens? I grant it may not happen in your lifetime, but are you telling your children that their faith will turn to ashes when this puzzle is solved?

Bear in mind it was centuries between Copernicus and Newton, and between Newton and Einstein.

In fifty years we have gone from knowing nothing about DNA to trials of treating diseases with genetic engineering. Be careful about predicting what scientific puzzles cannot be solved.

[BMCDA]

His feeling is (and I agree completely) that the debate between ID and Darwinism should be allowed to happen completely absent any judicial dictats.

And scientists are still allowed to debate the issue and there are no "judicial dictats" which prevents them from doing so.
What has been prevented though, is the teaching of an unscientific concept (which ID undoubtedly is) that has been tried to insert into the curriculum solely for religious reasons as was the case in Dover.

That, after all, is how science is supposed to work.

Scientific controversies are resolved among scientists and not in high schools. What you teach in science classes is the result of such controversies and not just any idea which hasn't been accepted by the scientific community.

[flevit]

more specific, only if one assumes unintelligence "gave rise" to intelligence is your definition of "supreme intelligence" true,

supreme intelligence has always existed, "gave rise to it" cannot and doesnot apply.

[Antoninus]

Are you willing to abandon your faith when this happens? I grant it may not happen in your lifetime, but are you telling your children that their faith will turn to ashes when this puzzle is solved?

Why? Do you want me to?

Both Christianity and science have the same goal--the Truth. One can not contradict the other, though the imperfect and limited mind of man may be unable to see the consonance sometimes. I have absolutely no fear of the Truth as revealed by science--so long as it can be absolutlely proven in a particularly iron-clad way. 2+2=4 holds no terrors for me.

Believing that life sprang from non-life based on a mere hypothesis, however, is an leap of faith that I'm not willing to make. If it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at some point in the future, then so be it. At that moment I would hearken back to the injuction given on Ash Wednesday, "Remember that thou art dust and to dust you shall return."

Scientific theories which are used to buttress specific philosophical or social structures don't rise to the level of ultimate Truth in my mind. Interesting and compelling, perhaps. But not as a philosophy upon which to base my life.

[Antoninus]

Scientific controversies are resolved among scientists and not in high schools. What you teach in science classes is the result of such controversies and not just any idea which hasn't been accepted by the scientific community.

Are you telling me that students should not be exposed to scientific controversies in schools? That they should be spoon-fed only those ideas which have been acccepted by the "scientific community"? I shudder to think what that might mean in the case of 1.) global warming, 2.) environmentalism.

Perhaps you've been out of high school/college for a long time. A lot of what passes for science at the lower levels these days is simply politics dressed in a scientific veneer.

We were taught Lamarckian Evolution in school as a way of demonstrating why it failed as a theory. ID should be presented the same way in relation to the ToE--as a potential challenge to the theory. That's all. What is the problem with that?

[Antonello]

perhaps your logic is ironic:

if "logic" is nothing more than a product of the human mind...it is by definition, subjective.

I am assuming you are not using 'subjective' in the grammatical sense, i.e. relating to the subject of a sentence, and instead you are applying the definition of being interpreted individually without regard to the external world. If this is true then you are once again mistaken in your choice of words. Logic is a formal system of guiding principles used to determine the validity of a proposition through deductive reasoning. In other words, it is an accepted part of the real world - not simply open to the whims of each individual.

[Antonello]

more specific, only if one assumes unintelligence "gave rise" to intelligence is your definition of "supreme intelligence" true,

supreme intelligence has always existed, "gave rise to it" cannot and doesnot apply.

Your entire argument depends on the presumption of a fact not in evidence. Arguing that man cannot be the supreme intelligence because there is a superior one is only acceptable if either both sides stipulate to this or one side proves this existence to the other. Claiming that the argument itself is that proof is circular.

[Elsie]

And really, he's not quite at "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God" level of vitriol yet.

 

Ok.........

 

How about THIS Preacher?  If HE was TV would you say the same about what He says???

 

---

---

---

 

NIV Matthew 8:12
  But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 10:28
   Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 11:20-25
 20.  Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
 21.  "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
 22.  But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
 23.  And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.  If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
 24.  But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 13:36-44
 36.  Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
 37.  He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
 38.  The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 
 39.  and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
 40.  "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
 41.  The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
 42.  They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 43.  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

NIV Matthew 13:49-52
 49.  This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
 50.  and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 51.  "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked.   "Yes," they replied.

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 18:6-7
 6.  But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
 7.  "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 18:23-35
 23.  "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
 24.  As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents  was brought to him.
 25.  Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
 26.  "The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.'
 27.  The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
 28.  "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.  He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 
 29.  "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
 30.  "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.
 31.  When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
 32.  "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
 33.  Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'
 34.  In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
 35.  "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

 

NIV Matthew 24:50-51
 50.  The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
 51.  He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 25:29-30
 29.  For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
 30.  And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

 

 

NIV Matthew 25:40-46
 40.  "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
 41.  "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
 42.  For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
 43.  I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
 44.  "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
 45.  "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
 46.  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

---

---

 

 

NIV Matthew 12:25
   Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

 

Hold onto THIS thought!

[Elsie]

If you're dead, how will you know anything?

Ya gotta figger out which one of these writers are speaking the words of GOD.

---

Job:

NIV Job 26:5
"The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them.

David:

NIV Psalms 115:17-18
17. It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to silence;
18. it is we who extol the LORD, both now and forevermore. Praise the LORD.

Solomon:

NIV Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Isaiah:

NIV Isaiah 26:19
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

[Elsie]

Teaching kids about the virtues of sodomy and homosex is GOOD.

Teaching kids about ID's critique of the ToE is the epitome of EVIL.

 

Isaiah 5:20-21

 20.  Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
 21.  Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

[Elsie]

The problem is that the gaps keep getting narrower, and fewer and fewer things appear the irreducible things are STILL in them.

[Elsie]

...but I'd like to see the "conservatives" try to win a national election without the "Fundamentalist Christian Young Earth Creationists."

Myself; I'd like to see the "liberals" try to win a national election without the "gays, welfare non-workers, heretical religionists and Socialists of every stripe."

Their eyes ARE open, but they are blind.

[jboot]

You are correct, they couldn't win. Similarly, without religious conservatives the Rebublicans would go the way of the Whigs. Reagan worked hard to give us a home in the party, but a lot of folks now want to evict us, or at least make us sit in the back row and keep our mouths shut.

[Right Wing Professor]

Judaism is somewhat agnostic on the afterlife, so the disagreement is understandable.