Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[Full Court]

you can't please God, for He is not subject to pleasure.

Hebrews 11:6  
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[Agrarian]

As I said, I didn't have a good explanation.

[Full Court]

I can't think of why her not remaining a virgin after her birth would affect our salvation.

Then why does so much of your faith revolve around Mary?:

[Full Court]

The unbaptized baby does not have ordinary means of salvation applicable to him, i.e. baptism. He only relies on the extraordinary mercy of Christ, sometihng we surely hope for but cannot be assured of.

David was sure. Why can't you be sure?

2 Samuel 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

[Full Court]

Don't sin, and bingo, absolute assurance.

Why is your salvation based on what you do, not what Jesus did for you?

[Agrarian]

"My bet is on Archangel Gabriel."

You are right that the term Theotokos (which again, is specifically *not* the same term as "Mother of God" in Greek -- it is the Birthgiver of God, or Bringer-forth of God -- hence we Orthodox in the English speaking world leave the word untranslated) came long before the council in Ephesus.

Nestorius's avoidance of the term was odd enough within the Church that it drew attention to him, even though he had mostly kept his heretical beliefs to himself.

And while the Archangel may have used the term, we do know that something very close was used by St. Elizabeth, who called her "the mother of my Lord."

[Full Court]

Mary is a co-redeemer

Job 19:25  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Psalms 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Psalms 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Proverbs 23:11  For their redeemer is mighty; he shall plead their cause with thee.

Isaiah 41:14  Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 43:14  ¶Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isaiah 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 47:4  As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 48:17  Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isaiah 49:7  ¶Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isaiah 49:26  And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 54:5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 54:8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isaiah 59:20  And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 60:16  Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 63:16  Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Jeremiah 50:34  Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.

Mary is not "co redeemer."

The Holy one of Israel needeth no help.

[Agrarian]

"Then why does so much of your faith revolve around Mary?"

Attend a few Orthodox services (make sure they are in English), and you will see that the overwhelming center is Christ. We have virtually no icons of Mary that do not also contain Christ, and the fact that her importance derives from the fact she gave birth to the Savior is emphasized at every turn where she does appear in our liturgical texts.

I could ask in turn why you seem so determined to give the smack-down to any extra respect directed toward the mother of Christ. The same people who would stand up with respect for the President of the United States if he walked into the room throw a hissy if someone treats the woman who gave birth to the eternal God come in the flesh as anything other than some kind of surrogate mother heifer chosen at random.

If your reply is that it's just the prayer and veneration that bothers you, then why don't you at least treat Mary in your life and church with at least the same reverent respect that, say, most conservative Republicans treat the memory of Ronald Reagan?

Truth to be told, much of the fervor with which you hold to your beliefs about Mary seems to me to be motivated by little else than a determination to believe the opposite of whatever Catholics believe. It's not that we Orthodox don't understand that temptation to say the opposite of what Catholics do -- it's just that we try to resist it.

[Full Court]

Perhaps we can be the ark of the covenant.

Mary wasn't the ark of the covenant, and Jesus isn't either.

he is the mediator of the new covenant, with his blood.

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[Agrarian]

And to think that some say that subtlety and taste are lost arts in the 21st century...

Again, in case you missed the memo (or just chose to ignore it), the Orthodox Church does not refer to the Theotokos as a co-redeemer. Your beef is not with us -- at least not on that point.

[annalex]

The Gospel teaches us to give everything to the poor and follow Christ;; to become perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. If you have a problem with the call for sainthood, you have a problem with the Gospel.

[annalex]

Kindness is the Gospel. Love is the first virtue, remember?

[blue-duncan]

"That passage stands in direct contrast to Luke 1:28, "hail full of grace". That grace is the grace of Christ that justifies the believer, starting with Mary, as Paul explains in verses 24-30."

The Greek word for "grace" that used in this verse is not the word for the gift of salvation, but the common word for favor.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

The definition of this form of the Greek word "charitoo {khar-ee-to'-o}" is,
1) to make graceful
a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to pursue with grace, compass with favour
3) to honour with blessings

The only other place the word form is used in the New Testament is Eph 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." The phrase "made us accepted" is the same word form.

"Mary is a co-redeemer because of her unique status of the Mother of God."

Jesus did not look upon his mother as "co-redeemer" and in fact thought those who heard and obeyed the word of God were as equally blessed as Mary.

Luk 11:27 "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

[Full Court]

smack-down to any extra respect directed toward the mother of Christ.

I give her the same respect that Jesus did.

Mark 3:35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Truth to be told, much of the fervor with which you hold to your beliefs about Mary seems to me to be motivated by little else than a determination to believe the opposite of whatever Catholics believe.

Anything that denigrates Jesus Christ, as adoration of Mary does, I am against it totally. NO matter who preaches it.

[Full Court]

Surely you don't think it ill-advised to ask for Mary's prayers, especially when in the hour of our death our own pious disposition might be not at its height.

You are never ever told to pray to Mary. She is singled out by Jesus Christ as being the same as any believer, nothing more, nothing less.

If you are praying to Mary at your death, you can best believe that the next thing you see will be Satan in Hell.

Mary does not save, she does not offer salvation and she can not hear you nor help you.

1 Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

[Full Court]

then why don't you at least treat Mary in your life and church with at least the same reverent respect that, say, most conservative Republicans treat the memory of Ronald Reagan?

Babe, I can in no way compare Jesus Christ to Ronald Regan than you could compare Mary the mother of Jesus to Daisy Duck.

[tenn2005]

When you capitalize "the Word", I presume you mean the Bible - correct me if I am wrong... In reality, the Word is the Second Person of the Trinity. Our religion is based upon His revelation to man, not the Bible alone.

The only place His revelation to man can be found is in the Bible.

[Full Court]

Which is why I am frankly surprised at the level of hostility to the belief in her ever-virginity amongst the Protestants on this forum. For her to be ever-virgin affects no Protestant doctrine whatsoever, and I don't think it affects our core doctrines, either. For that reason, I do not feel that I am being untrue to my own beliefs by saying that I can understand why Protestants would believe as they do -- and yet there is a rigid unwillingness on the part of Protestants on this thread to acknowledge that *just maybe* it is reasonable for us to believe as we do.

It is absolutely unbiblical, and therefore untrue to say that Mary remained a virgin.Part of the problem with spreading that falsehood in the face of God saying other wise is that it cast aspersions upon the Word of God.

Satan himself sowed the first seeds of doubt by saying "Yea, hath God said?"

So it is very important that fables and folk tales not be held as true.

[Full Court]

The Gospel is not kindness to animals.

[Full Court]

1 Corinthians 15:1  ¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: