Posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:54 AM PST by sionnsar
I have recently read some things on the blogo-world where Christians are actually condemned to Hell for venerating objects within the context of worship. Of course, it comes from many who claim the Reformed Tradition, almost in an iconographic way. To make such rash judgments about Christians who would give honour to the "holy place" of worship by a bow or a bending of the knee is simply silly. To make the claim that Christians in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox or Anglican Communions are damned to Hell because of this is not helpful in light of what others are doing to them in their own contexts. I find it odd that there were all sorts of "heavenly symbols" in the Temple and on the vestments of the OT priests that were commanded by God to be there and yet these establishments follow the giving of the Second Commandment. Do Christians follow the Temple or the 'Synagogue' model of worship and is this even the right question to be asking? It's interesting that the Second Commandment states "that ANYTHING in heaven or earth" should not be made and yet all sorts of "heavenly beings" are within the Temple. Then we have the Temple and the "icons" in the Holy of Holies. Is this really something to condemn fellow Christians for? Is it really a violation of the Second Commandment?
At the Second Council of Nicaea (Seventh Ecumenical Council) - 787 A.D the Council said,
We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways; these are the images of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and of Our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels, and of any of the saintly holy men.I think the below article on this issue makes more sense than the common "Protestant" condemnation that sends those who disagree to Hell. I have never thought of anything other than the worship of God by any veneration given to the altar, cross, or priest in worship. We cross ourselves in our family, have icons in our home, (large advent wreath now) crosses, crucifixes, statues of saints, and all other sorts or Christian Tradition and we have never worshiped one of these things nor given them the honour that is due to God alone. When I deacon in worship and read the Gospel I cross it and kiss it after the proclamation "This is the Gospel of the Lord." I have never set my will to worship these holy things. Worship is an act of the will and an informed conviction that worship is only to God our Father through our Lord Jesus Christ. This article's point here makes a lot more sense than the broad condemnations that one often finds is being attributed to non-Protestant denominations.
So, for the veneration of images to violate the second commandment, it would have to: 1. Be an image of some type, 2. We would have to bow to it, 3. We would bow to it in order to serve it, 4. And to serve it as a god, to supersede God. Thus, it would turn into worship and break the second commandment. Veneration of the Saints through their images only applies to 2 of the 4 qualifications, thus it is not worship of the Saint or the Icon, nor does it break the second commandment. It seems the real concern of those who hesitate at this point is that they are afraid that if they bow to an Icon and kiss it, that they might find themselves someday falling into worship rather than just veneration and honor. Like one day they would wake up and realize that all this time they had been worshiping Mary instead of just giving her honor. The truth of the matter is that you simply cannot accidently worship an Icon. Worship is intentionally giving veneration to a god. As long as that god is the God, then you have nothing to worry about. No one can accidentally worship a Saint. Worship is a purposefull activity and you do it on purpose and with intent.The whole article is here. It is a sad day that when brothers, who disagree, over something like this would begin condemning souls to eternal perdition just to let those who disagree with them on other controversial issues know that they are not as bad as those of us who have pictures of Jesus or statues of our favourite saints, crosses or crucifixes in our homes or churches. Can we have a more intelligent and Christian dicussion of these things? Is this now the measure of "Reformed" orthodoxy?
Which is the point the gentleman on the other forum was trying to make. It used to be strange to be a Lutheran. You had the crucifix in the front, went to church on Wednesday nights during Lent and Advent (not to mention confessional services on occasion), and actually believed in the Real Presence in Communion. But yet, you weren't Roman Catholic.
Confused many of our neighbors in the early immigrant days I imagine. But now most Lutheran (and heck most Roman Catholic) parishes have become very Americanized. That is why I can easily see some of the former Lutheran's being attrached to Eastern Orthodoxy. It still is "strange" enough to seem normal in a way.
AB, I was kidding about the sissy stuff.
Sorry ...
I was a bit annoyed about something else, ran across this thread, and took some of it out on you guys.
That was uncalled for.
Don't worry about!
I can find something to dislike about every Orthodox church I have been to a few times. Yes, even Sameba, because there was no bathroom available for several blocks. My strongest preference would be for God to transplant one of the lovely ancient churches from Tbilisi to a neighborhood within walking distance of my home. :-)
But, darn it, He just hasn't done that for me yet! I think my chances are slim at this time.
I do understand your frustration, as I have felt a similar one about the "Americanized version" of Orthodoxy. Then, too, I could tell you what I do like about the Americanized version of the Orthodox faith, as opposed to some of the very ethnic parishes I have been a part of.
I wonder if you have seen this writing for converts?
It is a writing that has been helpful to me at times.
Kosta, it was a Popodija who said to me that what comes out of our mouths is more important than what we put in.
I hope the coming Nativity of our Lord is a joyful one for all of you!
Wonderful link, Marmema.
However, Agrarian will remember that I once hinted that to fail is not in itself a sin as it is if it is not an honest failure. So, when I fail to observe the fast as I would like to, it is my own conflict, but I would never serve milk to Orthodox Christians with their coffee during fast. If they asked for it, I would give it to them without judgment, understanding that we are all weak and sinful.
My point was that the priest allows bagels and cheese and eggs and milk and so on, and even partakes in the same himself! It is the intention that counts. To honestly try and to honestly fail, admitting our ingratitude and weakness and agonizing over it is one thing; to engage in breaking the fast or ignoring the fast or willingly "modifying" the fast is an altogether different phenomenon.
It is indeed "Protestant" to the core! For the teaching and the Liturgy are Orthodox, but the praxis is not! If you ever listen to the Protestant preachers and ministers, their message rings very much as ours do. But they never put that pride away; they only like the soothing message, but do not live by it (generally speaking). So, when you see the same thing among the Orthodox of American extraction you see the mirror image of their Protestant past -- they talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk (generally speaking).
We are all sinners, but there is a difference how we approach our sin. Do we apply "pecca fortiter" of Luther's persuasion and sin boldly, or do we wrestle with our own weakness and lack of faith and, above all, love for God.
If I had to put it as succintly as possible, I would say that they fail to live the faith. Instead, they bend and modify the faith to fit the society, so that they don't have to give up anything, not even for God!
So, the idea that "no-meat" is fast could have only come from the Roman Catholic tradition, whether it was properly interpreted or not, and certainly not from the Protestant (because they don't fast as a rule) or the Orthodox (because our fast is more than just "no-meat").
I know in our parish the spirit and not the letter of the law is greatly emphasized. And then it seems to me that people judge each other way too often for all kinds of things. A man who apparently judged me for not being happy about gays coming into the church went on to talk negatively about one of our Matushkas and how she talks too much during liturgy. In almost the same sentence...
Lots of people have judged us because we held our kids out of the churchschool this year, and because our boys moved from the parish Boy Scout troop to another near our home. And because we are strict in our parenting and our girls wear longish skirts to church, dressing modestly, and not that stuff we deplore seeing on girls today.
We're going to liturgy in the morning to worship God and expecting more of the same, because it seems like our parish is going through a growing pains thing right now, and everyone is crabby and crowded and unsmiling.
Save your money and go to Tbilisi. :-) You will find friendly, warm people who are very traditional in worship and praxis, and the most lovely liturgy you can imagine. I wish I could experience it every Sunday but here I am....
When my son and I were there we walked that street every day to liturgy, and on one of them bought candles from her. Things were so inexpensive in Georgia that I just gave her ten Lari ( about five dollars) and told her to keep the change. She threw her arms around me and cried and was saying things in Georgian that I did not understand.
As we left liturgy that day we walked by her again and my son smiled and commented on the food on the table that had not been there before. So we think she got to eat that day because of us.
A few months after I came home I found a man in Oregon that was going to Georgia, on the internet, and sent some money with him for various people there. He delivered it for me, and one of my friends in Tbilisi gave 15 dollars of it to the candle lady, and told me she thanked me.
Just last month another friend who was traveling to Georgia took more money for me to my candle lady - this time 25 dollars. And the other day in the mail I rec'd a letter from the candle lady, which my friend carried here and mailed to me. The letter follows -
"It was great when I received your gift. I didn't expect it and of course I was too surprised. Thank you for your kindness.
We Georgians are very brave and proud people but now we live in a big poverty and it makes us sad.
I don't know how to thank you. If you have a chance to come in Georgia I will be happy.
Give my regards to your child and to everyone you know. My daughter helped me to write this letter.
Your Amalia"
Please forgive my horrid grammatical errors in my posts.
That I believe. My point is that it would not have happened back in their native country! It happens here in America, because everyone, as Kolo says "wants to be white." So, the immigrants either try too hard to not stick out like sore thumbs and not to be "party poopers" or their children (traumatized with unpronouncable names) try their darnest to be as Americans with "roots" but not with the same values as their parents or grandparents.
American culture is one of constant change; Orthodoxy is a lifestyle that doesn't know change. America is a secular society; Orthodoxy is unchanging lifestyle of unchanging Faith in unchanging God. The two are incompatible and mutually opposite, and exclusive.
You can ask Kolo and he will tell you that American Greek Orthodox churches are not Greek Orthodox churches in Greece. I can assure you that in Serbia there is no pizza served at teen group meetings or any such nonsense during fast.
The SCOBA, or whatever pan-Orthodox organization in America in the future, will eventually have to deal with these innovations and departures from Church teachings in practice. Right now everyone is pretenidng that it does not exist and that somehow it will correct itself, or that someone esle is in charge of fixing it.
But I predict that when the Church tries to apply "pedagogic correction" to its deviant offshoots, there will be a birth of "protestant" Orthodoxy in America. I see it coming. I may be the only one, but that's okay.
To justify one church's deviance with another's is relativism, MarMema. To say that we are no worse than the other parish is a lame excuse.
We all know that Satan works with joy were relativism thrives. Some fifty years ago it was unthinkable for women to be uncovered in church. Today, even Orthodox women are "liberated" and made "equal to men" by coming to church uncovered. Yet, how many people know that being covered was a priviledge and not a sign of submission. Have you ever seen Theotokos, that many women consider is their role model par excellence, uncovered?
Satan managed to first plant a seed of doubt and then to convince by his endless deception that being "equal" to men is breaking the 2,000 year church tradition, deeply rooted in Patristic writings, and commanded by Scripture. We have been so deceived that we no see breaking that tradition and ignoring Scripture as something positive and even "progressive." We are evn proud of it!
The reason why Satan is so successful is because we feel that reason is what makes us right, and righteous. The Age of Reason is a western phenomenon that has become the standard of (self)righteousness. It is self-love par excellence!
So, no need to ratinalize and relativize, dear sister in Christ. Orthodoxy in America will follow the same liberal pattern of self-destruction that all other Chrstian groups have experienced. Just remember that what seems rational and right may be devil's distortion, and not what is seems on the outside.
"You can ask Kolo and he will tell you that American Greek Orthodox churches are not Greek Orthodox churches in Greece. I can assure you that in Serbia there is no pizza served at teen group meetings or any such nonsense during fast."
I certainly can tell all of you that the Church in Greece is not the Church in America. In many ways, because Orthodoxy had such an influence on the culture of the people there over the past 2000 years, in areas of day to day life, one does see a more Orthodox way of living in little things than here. But Kosta, the Faith is in more danger in Greece than it is here. Of that I am convinced.
Here in America we have small parishes where the majority of the women are not covered, it is true; we also have the same small parishes where 75-80 % of the local Orthodox population actually attends the Liturgy every Sunday and the majority of them receive communion, generally properly prepared, especially the converts. In Greece in a village of 250 people, on a random Sunday, you'll find 12 old ladies, 7 old men and the priest's grandson in attendance. The women are covered though! This past May, after Pascha, I was in a large town (1800 people or so, maybe a few more) at the bottom of Greece. On Sunday, in a renovated church, with seating for all, there were perhaps 80 people. Some women were covered, some weren't. Two people went to communion, a woman brought up a baby and me! I won't even go into what happens in Athens. In America we don't have a hierarchy that is noted for its truly magnificent corruption, bribing judges and government officials to cover up sex scandals, whore mongering, gambling, drug running and crooked land deals. In America we don't need to worry that the hierarchy will steal our parish savings and use them to build palatial estates. Our Church here is no threat to the integrity of the state. We don't have "pink monasteries" to bring shame and scandal on the Faith. People here admire and try to emulate those who have the strength to endure the fasts. There they snicker about people who fast more than Great Week. Our 16 year old daughters don't dance topless on tables in "teen" nightclubs and our sons don't wear "Rotting Christ" (a band of some kind) T-shirts while proclaiming "I'm very serious about my faith"! Our daughters don't use abortion as a method of birth control, our men are generally faithful husbands and our wives don't laugh off the idea that a husband might have a mistress!
And Kosta, according to the latest G2 I got from Serbia, which admittedly was last Fall, its as bad if not worse there. I thank God everyday that I was born here and am Orthodox here and not there and I especially thank God for the American coverts He has sent our way, many of whom are as much an example to those of us ethnic Orthodox adults as our grandmothers from the Old Country were to us as children.
"We don't have "pink monasteries" to bring shame and scandal on the Faith."
Say it isn't so, K!?!?
""We don't have "pink monasteries" to bring shame and scandal on the Faith."
Say it isn't so, K!?!?"
Yup, a few years back...a whole monastery of them. Had themselves their own little sodomite colony on an island off southern Greece. The monastery was closed and a number of them thrown in jail.
What gorgeous pics! Yours?
How about it...is the trip to Georgia still on?
Hm. Brokeback Monastery?
I think they did have a "flock" of very scared goats!
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