Posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:54 AM PST by sionnsar
I think I would be miserable if I did not make it back to Georgia sometime in 2006. Let's definitely plan on going!
Red:
A few years back there was a big scandal in Greece about a monastery full of homosexuals. One of the priest/monks from that monastery was at our seminary at Brookline, Ma and was booted out when he put the moves on a Palestinian Christian seminarian. At about the same time (!) the story broke in Greece about the monastery. Payback's a bitch sometimes. The pink part comes from what we call homosexual monks/priests...the pink rasos crowd.
Red, those guys are everywhere. Even the Desert Fathers had to deal with it! There's very little new in the world, or in the Church, my brother.
Theo
Coming soon to a theater near you!
Amen brother...I am reminded of the sayings of St. Mark of Ephesus:
"It is impossible to recall peace without dissolving the cause of the schism—the primacy of the Pope exalting himself equal to God." "The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics... we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do."
Pretty much sums it up.....:)
Tex, it seems they may be well on the way to dropping the filioque, witness this recommendation from the Agreed Statement (http://www.scoba.us/resources/filioque-p02.asp) on the filioque (last section):
"that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."
The primacy issue is what the theologians are working on now.
Well, that is certainly a step in the right direction. The primacy issue is going to be a difficult one though. The Pope will have to renounce Vatican I, and I don't see that happening. Then there are the other issues like for example the Catholic Dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, which is directly contrary to Orthodox Teachings, and Holy Tradition.....
"Well, that is certainly a step in the right direction. The primacy issue is going to be a difficult one though. The Pope will have to renounce Vatican I, and I don't see that happening. Then there are the other issues like for example the Catholic Dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, which is directly contrary to Orthodox Teachings, and Holy Tradition....."
You're right. Primacy is the big issue which is why the churches are discussing this right now, and for a change, it looks like Moscow and Constantinople are on the same page. I am informed that they both believe that there is a way to deal with Vatican I. Given my limited knowledge of the way Rome deals with dogmatic pronouncements, I don't see what that way is, but interestingly, the Melkites have dealt with it successfully in a quasi-Orthodox way.
The "dogma" of the Assumption is considered theologoumenon in the Greek and Arabic speaking churches. Isn't this the case with the Slavic churches?
I don't understand how it could be acceptable....
We as Orthodox, believe in the "Dormition" or "Falling Asleep" of the Theotokos.
Latins believe that she was taken "bodily" into heaven, without seeing death......
Merely a permitted pious opinion, not defined as dogma.
The Church makes no assertion on whether she was alive or dead at the Assumption. I was always taught that she was assumed after her death.
It's not Roman Catholic dogma.
"Latins believe that she was taken "bodily" into heaven, without seeing death...... "
You are correct that we celebrate the Dormition (death). Our theologoumenon is her bodily assumption into heaven which I understand to be the Roman Catholic dogma, which, as the Romans here have pointed out, is silent on the issue of whether or not she was alive, though there is for them a pious belief among some that she was alive. Our iconography of course shows Panagia's soul in the hands of Christ so her "living" assumption wouldn't even be theologoumenon for us. Personally, I think that belief in an alive bodily assumption is dangerous theologically...but that gets us back again to the Immaculate Conception and the idea of Original Sin.
My books aren't here, but doesn't your liturgy explicitly affirm it?
"My books aren't here, but doesn't your liturgy explicitly affirm it?"
Indeed it does for August 15th. Here is the Synaxarion for the Feast of the Dormition of the Most Holy Theotokos:
"Concerning the Dormition of the Theotokos, this is what the Church has received from ancient times from the tradition of the Fathers. When the time drew nigh that our Savior was well-pleased to take His Mother to Himself, He declared unto her through an Angel that three days hence, He would translate her from this temporal life to eternity and bliss. On hearing this, she went up with haste to the Mount of Olives, where she prayed continuously. Giving thanks to God, she returned to her house and prepared whatever was necessary for her burial. While these things were taking place, clouds caught up the Apostles from the ends of the earth, where each one happened to be preaching, and brought them at once to the house of the Mother of God, who informed them of the cause of their sudden gathering. As a mother, she consoled them in their affliction as was meet, and then raised her hands to Heaven and prayed for the peace of the world. She blessed the Apostles, and, reclining upon her bed with seemliness, gave up her all-holy spirit into the hands of her Son and God.
With reverence and many lights, and chanting burial hymns, the Apostles took up that God-receiving body and brought it to the sepulchre, while the Angels from Heaven chanted with them, and sent forth her who is higher than the Cherubim. But one Jew, moved by malice, audaciously stretched forth his hand upon the bed and immediately received from divine judgment the wages of his audacity. Those daring hands were severed by an invisible blow. But when he repented and asked forgiveness, his hands were restored. When they had reached the place called Gethsemane, they buried there with honor the all-immaculate body of the Theotokos, which was the source of Life. But on the third day after the burial, when they were eating together, and raised up the artos (bread) in Jesus' Name, as was their custom, the Theotokos appeared in the air, saying "Rejoice" to them. From this they learned concerning the bodily translation of the Theotokos into the Heavens.
These things has the Church received from the traditions of the Fathers, who have composed many hymns out of reverence, to the glory of the Mother of our God."
Does that make it "not just a theolegoumenon"?
"Does that make it "not just a theolegoumenon"?"
Apparently not, from what I have been told, but in 54 years on this earth I've yet to meet an Orthodox person who doesn't believe in the bodily assumption of Panagia. I suspect the same is true of Roman Catholics which makes me wonder why the Pope bothered to proclaim it dogma. The flip side of that, of course, is that if ever there was a consensus on something totally outside scripture, this is it.
[...] I did not wish to suffer thee to taste death, but to translate thee up to the heavens as Enoch and Elias. But these also, even they must needs taste death at last. And if this happens to thee, wicked men will think concerning thee, that thou art a power which came down from heaven; and that this dispensation took place in appearance. I know the heart of all men, and understand their thoughts.It seems rather clear that the Fathers taught both dormition and assumption.When our Saviour had said these things, He turned His face to us, even to me Peter and to John; and said to us, Be of good cheer, My friends and apostles. I will not suffer her to be long away from you, but she shall appear to you quickly. There are two hundred and six days from her death unto her holy assumption. I will bring her unto you arrayed in this body again, even as this body also, as ye see her now, whilst she is with you, And I will translate her up to the heavens to be with My Father and the Holy Ghost, that she may continue praying for you all.
[...]
Take up therefore the body of My holy mother. Place it moreover in the stone coffin. Shut it, and abide by it in prayers until the time appointed for her assumption. In two hundred and six days I will come with her blessed soul, and I will take her to the heavens in glory to be with My good Father and the Holy Ghost.
" It seems rather clear that the Fathers taught both dormition and assumption."
You won't get any argument from me, Alex!
Thank you for that great link Marmema.
I still have some of those teeny candles and only use them sparingly.
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