Posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:54 AM PST by sionnsar
[W]e pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.Here is a painting of the Assumption by El Greco which shows the Blessed Mother raising from a tomb:
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Sorry, I forgot to ping you for post #201.
She looks "alive" to me in the picture. Theologoumenon?
I would think that even assuming the Assumption after the experience of death that it would include a true resurrection in which the body and soul are reunited. Would the Orthodox view maintain a separated body in soul in Heaven after the Assumption?
There is no doubt about that, my doubt is that I know too many devout Roman Catholics that believe she didn't taste death, and THAT is my problem with Catholic Dogma, if it is indeed that!
Very Good Sir...That answers my question. Apparently as we have in Orthodoxy, there are some poor ignorant souls that don't know their own faith among RC's......:)
They may believe that, but that is not dogma. Assumption is dogma, and it does not contradict dormition, as the quotes from Damascene and Theodosius show.
" Would the Orthodox view maintain a separated body in soul in Heaven after the Assumption?"
Off hand I don't know. Some of our prayers would seem to indicate joining of body and soul.
I don't think so. "Narrow is the path and few shall find it." The fewer people in churches, the purer their Faith is, Kolo. Satan delights in deception and his strongest card is our reason. For, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know and believe that to have is better than not to have, and that to have more is better than to have less. So, we use church attendance, or lack of it, as a measure of how "healthy" or "unhelathy" the Faith must be. Let's not forget that it was prophesized that the Church will become invisible and that most of humanity will sell out to Satan's ways, which we understand a lot better than God's.
75-80 % of the local Orthodox population actually attends the Liturgy every Sunday and the majority of them receive communion, generally properly prepared, especially the converts.
And I can tell you that the number of people who come to vespers and confess is laughable compared to the whole church taking communion the next day. Strength is not in numbers, Kolo. And just as it is certain that Protestant "eucharist" is no Eucharist, because it lacks grace, so we are certain that mass communions without confessions are not valid communions but self-deception borne out of self-love, void of grace.
Our Church here is no threat to the integrity of the state
Agreed, but neither because we are somehow holier than the Greeks, nor because our state is holider than that of others . It's just that our churches have not been placed in a position to do that -- yet. People will do whatever they can get away with, Kolo. It is also a well known fact that most heresies came from the Greek side of the Church. Does that invalidate the Greek Church or does that suggest that its holiness is besieged that much more by Satan? Christianity was very humble and Orthodox when it was weak and in hiding. It was something completely different when it became a state within a state, or when it is "adopting" to secular realities.
And, you mention Serbia. Given Serbia's history it is a real miracle it is even Christian.
This is unfair to the state of Greece. Any large confession is a threat to the integrity of any modern state. The Orthodox Church, even taken cumulatively is a small confession in America and so is no threat. But look at the constant slander and determined hostility toward Evangelicals and Catholics in America and tell me it is because of some theological difference from the Orthodox, or perhaps because there is some unique affinity between the American psyche and Orthodoxy. It is simply because these are large confessions that reach a significant proportion of the electorate, and thereby are a threat. And in Greece the Orthodox are a threat and other Christians are not.
" The fewer people in churches, the purer their Faith is, Kolo."
I don't think that's necessarily true at all, Kosta, anymore than a full church shows the people are "holy". I'm lucky I suppose because I've always been in the small parish of my forebears here in America. My boys are the 5th generation to attend there. I know the people of this small parish and have seen it change dramatically over the years from a place that was "full" but mostly because that's where the other Greeks were or because of motivations to attaned based more in superstition than the True Faith. I've seen it come from the days when our "endowment" was treated like a golden calf which we couldn't touch even if the light bill wouldn't get paid because, "You know, there aren't anymore Greeks coming and we're going to die out. We need the money to pay when there are just a few of us left." to a day when we don't need the endowment and we are growing; from days when virtually no one went to confession to today when all the converts and young people go and even some of the grown-up Greeks too :); from a day when our charitable giving meant giving to pay the bills of the parish to today when it means involvement in soup kitchens, services for the homeless, unwed mothers, a breast cancer center and making sure that not just our own parish kids, but every kid and family we can get to has something for Christmas.
" It is also a well known fact that most heresies came from the Greek side of the Church."
Don't forget the Syriac and Cotic speaking wings of the Church too, Kosta. They aren't big failures themselves when it comes to heresy. The Slavic Churches got a later start at heresy, but at least in Russia, they did a pretty good job at developing some very weird heretical cults, Kosta. Demons are attracted primarily by two things, empty places and holiness.
"This is unfair to the state of Greece. Any large confession is a threat to the integrity of any modern state. The Orthodox Church, even taken cumulatively is a small confession in America and so is no threat."
If the Orthodox Church here in America were engaged in the systematic bribing of judges, it would pose a threat to the integrity of the state. That's what has happened in Greece. While the evangelicals and the Latin Church may be powerful and influential here in America, they are not out bribing judges. The threat posed by Christianity in America is a threat to an increasingly godless minority running this country, not some form of ecclesiastical racketeering.
"But look at the constant slander and determined hostility toward Evangelicals and Catholics in America and tell me it is because of some theological difference from the Orthodox, or perhaps because there is some unique affinity between the American psyche and Orthodoxy."
Yeah, Alex, that must be it! /s
Here, Christianity poses a threat to certain power elites. In Greece Orthodoxy has in fact, like the Mafia, corrupted elements of the Republic; two very, very different things.
Your post betrays a lack of monarchism, or lack of anarchism, or even (shudder) both. Either lack is a serious error. Just ask your Greek relatives.
The modern (that is, political) state is fundamentally opposed to any religion, unless the religion is servile to it. Any actual transgression on the part of the clergy is, of course, capitalized upon. But the state opposes the Catholics and the Evangelicals (whose only transgression that I am aware of is that they have successful TV programs), and the Orthodox in Orthodox lands, because it hates and fears a self-sufficient Christian family, anywhere alike.
"Your post betrays a lack of monarchism, or lack of anarchism, or even (shudder) both. Either lack is a serious error. Just ask your Greek relatives."
You know my realtives, eh? Probably I'm displaying a lack of "monarchism". Greek anarchism is just fun to watch (usually on Tuesdays...people running in the streets with banners, a few fights, a few Molotov cocktails. You know, you lived there!:) )
I don;t think at least the present Greek government is opposed to Orthodoxy at all, as such. It is, quite rightly, opposed to the corruption the hierarchy mainly has brought into the system. Alex, even the monks and nuns are willing to consider disestablishment these days!
When I lived in Greece it took me a while to find out that my full beard meant I was an anarchist.
Yes, I agree with the implication that Greece was among few places of calm in the culture war. Is it still so? Isn't Brussels in charge of Greek culture these days? We may still have to learn how to put together a Molotov and run for the hills.
"When I lived in Greece it took me a while to find out that my full beard meant I was an anarchist."
Until a few years ago, I too had a full beard and my uncles all called me "the anarchist" in the family, but I'm actually far more conservative than they are!
As for being calm in the culture wars, well, you know Greece. People make a lot of noise for a few hours, everyone watches, shrugs and goes about their business. There's been many Tuesdays I've stood in a doorway between Omonia and Syntagma with a cop watching rioters. Its sort of a spectator sport! Culturally I don't see much effect of Brussells, but I do see, though perhaps not so much the past 4 years or so, that the worst America has to offer seems to hold a certain allure for the Greeks. Greece is Greece, my friend. There have been a lot of changes the past 20 years, most of them for the better, especially in the past 4 years or so. I love it there! Its very...free!
What makes these kalopedo anarchists particularly silly is that the left actually won for them in Europe, and they don't realize it.
I think that conservatism has a major task ahead of it: a realization that no political state is compatible with conservatism. The state is a fundamentally leftist idea. Real anarchists are religious conservatives, we just don't know it yet.
"Real anarchists are religious conservatives, we just don't know it yet."
Ha! I've always wanted to be an anarchist!
Just don't shave. Nothing can be easier, -- it's a natural thing.
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