Posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:54 AM PST by sionnsar
I have recently read some things on the blogo-world where Christians are actually condemned to Hell for venerating objects within the context of worship. Of course, it comes from many who claim the Reformed Tradition, almost in an iconographic way. To make such rash judgments about Christians who would give honour to the "holy place" of worship by a bow or a bending of the knee is simply silly. To make the claim that Christians in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox or Anglican Communions are damned to Hell because of this is not helpful in light of what others are doing to them in their own contexts. I find it odd that there were all sorts of "heavenly symbols" in the Temple and on the vestments of the OT priests that were commanded by God to be there and yet these establishments follow the giving of the Second Commandment. Do Christians follow the Temple or the 'Synagogue' model of worship and is this even the right question to be asking? It's interesting that the Second Commandment states "that ANYTHING in heaven or earth" should not be made and yet all sorts of "heavenly beings" are within the Temple. Then we have the Temple and the "icons" in the Holy of Holies. Is this really something to condemn fellow Christians for? Is it really a violation of the Second Commandment?
At the Second Council of Nicaea (Seventh Ecumenical Council) - 787 A.D the Council said,
We decree with full precision and care that, like the figure of the honored and life-giving cross, the revered and holy images, whether painted or made of mosaic or of other suitable material, are to be exposed in the holy churches of God, on sacred instruments and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by public ways; these are the images of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and of Our Lady without blemish, the holy God-bearer, and of the revered angels, and of any of the saintly holy men.I think the below article on this issue makes more sense than the common "Protestant" condemnation that sends those who disagree to Hell. I have never thought of anything other than the worship of God by any veneration given to the altar, cross, or priest in worship. We cross ourselves in our family, have icons in our home, (large advent wreath now) crosses, crucifixes, statues of saints, and all other sorts or Christian Tradition and we have never worshiped one of these things nor given them the honour that is due to God alone. When I deacon in worship and read the Gospel I cross it and kiss it after the proclamation "This is the Gospel of the Lord." I have never set my will to worship these holy things. Worship is an act of the will and an informed conviction that worship is only to God our Father through our Lord Jesus Christ. This article's point here makes a lot more sense than the broad condemnations that one often finds is being attributed to non-Protestant denominations.
So, for the veneration of images to violate the second commandment, it would have to: 1. Be an image of some type, 2. We would have to bow to it, 3. We would bow to it in order to serve it, 4. And to serve it as a god, to supersede God. Thus, it would turn into worship and break the second commandment. Veneration of the Saints through their images only applies to 2 of the 4 qualifications, thus it is not worship of the Saint or the Icon, nor does it break the second commandment. It seems the real concern of those who hesitate at this point is that they are afraid that if they bow to an Icon and kiss it, that they might find themselves someday falling into worship rather than just veneration and honor. Like one day they would wake up and realize that all this time they had been worshiping Mary instead of just giving her honor. The truth of the matter is that you simply cannot accidently worship an Icon. Worship is intentionally giving veneration to a god. As long as that god is the God, then you have nothing to worry about. No one can accidentally worship a Saint. Worship is a purposefull activity and you do it on purpose and with intent.The whole article is here. It is a sad day that when brothers, who disagree, over something like this would begin condemning souls to eternal perdition just to let those who disagree with them on other controversial issues know that they are not as bad as those of us who have pictures of Jesus or statues of our favourite saints, crosses or crucifixes in our homes or churches. Can we have a more intelligent and Christian dicussion of these things? Is this now the measure of "Reformed" orthodoxy?
[W]e pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.Here is a painting of the Assumption by El Greco which shows the Blessed Mother raising from a tomb:
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Sorry, I forgot to ping you for post #201.
She looks "alive" to me in the picture. Theologoumenon?
I would think that even assuming the Assumption after the experience of death that it would include a true resurrection in which the body and soul are reunited. Would the Orthodox view maintain a separated body in soul in Heaven after the Assumption?
There is no doubt about that, my doubt is that I know too many devout Roman Catholics that believe she didn't taste death, and THAT is my problem with Catholic Dogma, if it is indeed that!
Very Good Sir...That answers my question. Apparently as we have in Orthodoxy, there are some poor ignorant souls that don't know their own faith among RC's......:)
They may believe that, but that is not dogma. Assumption is dogma, and it does not contradict dormition, as the quotes from Damascene and Theodosius show.
" Would the Orthodox view maintain a separated body in soul in Heaven after the Assumption?"
Off hand I don't know. Some of our prayers would seem to indicate joining of body and soul.
I don't think so. "Narrow is the path and few shall find it." The fewer people in churches, the purer their Faith is, Kolo. Satan delights in deception and his strongest card is our reason. For, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to know and believe that to have is better than not to have, and that to have more is better than to have less. So, we use church attendance, or lack of it, as a measure of how "healthy" or "unhelathy" the Faith must be. Let's not forget that it was prophesized that the Church will become invisible and that most of humanity will sell out to Satan's ways, which we understand a lot better than God's.
75-80 % of the local Orthodox population actually attends the Liturgy every Sunday and the majority of them receive communion, generally properly prepared, especially the converts.
And I can tell you that the number of people who come to vespers and confess is laughable compared to the whole church taking communion the next day. Strength is not in numbers, Kolo. And just as it is certain that Protestant "eucharist" is no Eucharist, because it lacks grace, so we are certain that mass communions without confessions are not valid communions but self-deception borne out of self-love, void of grace.
Our Church here is no threat to the integrity of the state
Agreed, but neither because we are somehow holier than the Greeks, nor because our state is holider than that of others . It's just that our churches have not been placed in a position to do that -- yet. People will do whatever they can get away with, Kolo. It is also a well known fact that most heresies came from the Greek side of the Church. Does that invalidate the Greek Church or does that suggest that its holiness is besieged that much more by Satan? Christianity was very humble and Orthodox when it was weak and in hiding. It was something completely different when it became a state within a state, or when it is "adopting" to secular realities.
And, you mention Serbia. Given Serbia's history it is a real miracle it is even Christian.
This is unfair to the state of Greece. Any large confession is a threat to the integrity of any modern state. The Orthodox Church, even taken cumulatively is a small confession in America and so is no threat. But look at the constant slander and determined hostility toward Evangelicals and Catholics in America and tell me it is because of some theological difference from the Orthodox, or perhaps because there is some unique affinity between the American psyche and Orthodoxy. It is simply because these are large confessions that reach a significant proportion of the electorate, and thereby are a threat. And in Greece the Orthodox are a threat and other Christians are not.
" The fewer people in churches, the purer their Faith is, Kolo."
I don't think that's necessarily true at all, Kosta, anymore than a full church shows the people are "holy". I'm lucky I suppose because I've always been in the small parish of my forebears here in America. My boys are the 5th generation to attend there. I know the people of this small parish and have seen it change dramatically over the years from a place that was "full" but mostly because that's where the other Greeks were or because of motivations to attaned based more in superstition than the True Faith. I've seen it come from the days when our "endowment" was treated like a golden calf which we couldn't touch even if the light bill wouldn't get paid because, "You know, there aren't anymore Greeks coming and we're going to die out. We need the money to pay when there are just a few of us left." to a day when we don't need the endowment and we are growing; from days when virtually no one went to confession to today when all the converts and young people go and even some of the grown-up Greeks too :); from a day when our charitable giving meant giving to pay the bills of the parish to today when it means involvement in soup kitchens, services for the homeless, unwed mothers, a breast cancer center and making sure that not just our own parish kids, but every kid and family we can get to has something for Christmas.
" It is also a well known fact that most heresies came from the Greek side of the Church."
Don't forget the Syriac and Cotic speaking wings of the Church too, Kosta. They aren't big failures themselves when it comes to heresy. The Slavic Churches got a later start at heresy, but at least in Russia, they did a pretty good job at developing some very weird heretical cults, Kosta. Demons are attracted primarily by two things, empty places and holiness.
"This is unfair to the state of Greece. Any large confession is a threat to the integrity of any modern state. The Orthodox Church, even taken cumulatively is a small confession in America and so is no threat."
If the Orthodox Church here in America were engaged in the systematic bribing of judges, it would pose a threat to the integrity of the state. That's what has happened in Greece. While the evangelicals and the Latin Church may be powerful and influential here in America, they are not out bribing judges. The threat posed by Christianity in America is a threat to an increasingly godless minority running this country, not some form of ecclesiastical racketeering.
"But look at the constant slander and determined hostility toward Evangelicals and Catholics in America and tell me it is because of some theological difference from the Orthodox, or perhaps because there is some unique affinity between the American psyche and Orthodoxy."
Yeah, Alex, that must be it! /s
Here, Christianity poses a threat to certain power elites. In Greece Orthodoxy has in fact, like the Mafia, corrupted elements of the Republic; two very, very different things.
Your post betrays a lack of monarchism, or lack of anarchism, or even (shudder) both. Either lack is a serious error. Just ask your Greek relatives.
The modern (that is, political) state is fundamentally opposed to any religion, unless the religion is servile to it. Any actual transgression on the part of the clergy is, of course, capitalized upon. But the state opposes the Catholics and the Evangelicals (whose only transgression that I am aware of is that they have successful TV programs), and the Orthodox in Orthodox lands, because it hates and fears a self-sufficient Christian family, anywhere alike.
"Your post betrays a lack of monarchism, or lack of anarchism, or even (shudder) both. Either lack is a serious error. Just ask your Greek relatives."
You know my realtives, eh? Probably I'm displaying a lack of "monarchism". Greek anarchism is just fun to watch (usually on Tuesdays...people running in the streets with banners, a few fights, a few Molotov cocktails. You know, you lived there!:) )
I don;t think at least the present Greek government is opposed to Orthodoxy at all, as such. It is, quite rightly, opposed to the corruption the hierarchy mainly has brought into the system. Alex, even the monks and nuns are willing to consider disestablishment these days!
When I lived in Greece it took me a while to find out that my full beard meant I was an anarchist.
Yes, I agree with the implication that Greece was among few places of calm in the culture war. Is it still so? Isn't Brussels in charge of Greek culture these days? We may still have to learn how to put together a Molotov and run for the hills.
"When I lived in Greece it took me a while to find out that my full beard meant I was an anarchist."
Until a few years ago, I too had a full beard and my uncles all called me "the anarchist" in the family, but I'm actually far more conservative than they are!
As for being calm in the culture wars, well, you know Greece. People make a lot of noise for a few hours, everyone watches, shrugs and goes about their business. There's been many Tuesdays I've stood in a doorway between Omonia and Syntagma with a cop watching rioters. Its sort of a spectator sport! Culturally I don't see much effect of Brussells, but I do see, though perhaps not so much the past 4 years or so, that the worst America has to offer seems to hold a certain allure for the Greeks. Greece is Greece, my friend. There have been a lot of changes the past 20 years, most of them for the better, especially in the past 4 years or so. I love it there! Its very...free!
What makes these kalopedo anarchists particularly silly is that the left actually won for them in Europe, and they don't realize it.
I think that conservatism has a major task ahead of it: a realization that no political state is compatible with conservatism. The state is a fundamentally leftist idea. Real anarchists are religious conservatives, we just don't know it yet.
"Real anarchists are religious conservatives, we just don't know it yet."
Ha! I've always wanted to be an anarchist!
Just don't shave. Nothing can be easier, -- it's a natural thing.
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