Posted on 11/27/2005 5:18:04 PM PST by sionnsar
This issue is not going away. I do not know how it will be resolved, nor am I sure how it should be resolved. If you know gay people who are good and decent and loving, it is hard to condemn their lives as sinful. Personally, I do not feel a need to make that judgment.On the other hand, churches that have always taught that homosexual activity is sinful cannot — and should not — suddenly reverse course. The idea is not to find some theological loophole, but to continue praying for guidance and understanding — and in the meantime, to find ways to keep the family together. Both sides want that.
Nobody ever said it would be easy.
[Brad Drell:] I have to say, this is pretty much where I am on this issue.
Believers must stay connected even amid discord,
Mark Hare, Democrat & Chronicle, 11/27/2005
(November 27, 2005) —
He chose his words carefully. There was pain and sorrow in his eyes. Two days before the "extinction" vote, the Rev. David Harnish, rector of All Saints Episcopal Church in Irondequoit, knew the odds were against the parish — which had refused to pay more than $16,000 in required contributions to the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.
Long-story-short: All Saints parishioners and their pastor believe that the Episcopal Church of the USA has seriously strained "the bonds of affection" with the worldwide Anglican Communion because of its decision in 2003 to confirm the election of Bishop V. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire. Robinson is a gay cleric with a partner.
In response to the American bishops' decision, the Anglican Communion in 2004 produced the Windsor Report, aimed primarily at preserving unity. It recommended that the U.S. Episcopal church apologize for having caused pain within the Anglican Communion, that it accept a moratorium on future bishops who are living in gay relationships, and that it offer a theological explanation for its actions.
The U.S. Episcopal Church is "pushing too hard, too fast," Harnish says.
"In conscience," he says, All Saints cannot pay its apportionment. A week ago Saturday, the Episcopal diocese voted to shutter All Saints. A court fight looms.
This is a dispute no one wanted, as near as I can tell. It's not good guys vs. bad guys, but good guys vs. good guys. Episcopal Bishop Jack McKelvey says he is terribly troubled by the closing of All Saints, but insists that the larger Episcopal church has fully complied with the recommendations of the Windsor Report. He says he has no other choice. Conscience has consequences.
This time, it's really not about the money. And while it is about authority and unity, it is also about homosexuality — and how a church that believes sexual relations outside marriage are wrong can now accept a bishop with a gay lifestyle.
This is even more difficult than the struggle within the Catholic Church to accept celibate gay priests. Bishop Matthew Clark of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Rochester recently wrote a column in which he described his acceptance of priests who have told him of their homosexuality. What matters, he said, is that a priest be sexually mature, celibate, chaste and deeply spiritual.
He has, of course, been beaten up pretty good by folks who think he's at odds with last week's leaked version of a long-awaited Vatican document that says men who engage in homosexual activity or who support a so-called gay culture should be barred from the priesthood. It doesn't seem to me that Clark has said anything inconsistent with that rule. Moreover, the priority should be excluding sexual predators, gay or straight. Right?
What matters even more is that Christians love each other.
This issue is not going away. I do not know how it will be resolved, nor am I sure how it should be resolved. If you know gay people who are good and decent and loving, it is hard to condemn their lives as sinful. Personally, I do not feel a need to make that judgment.
On the other hand, churches that have always taught that homosexual activity is sinful cannot — and should not — suddenly reverse course. The idea is not to find some theological loophole, but to continue praying for guidance and understanding — and in the meantime, to find ways to keep the family together. Both sides want that.
Nobody ever said it would be easy.
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams. When I read stuff like this I keep thinking of Ezekiel 9.
It was where God showed Ezekiel, then an exile in Babylon, a vision of His temple in Jerusalem full of pagan idols.
I am certain that the priests wanted to reach out to good, decent Israelites who were Asherah worshippers in a spirit of tolerance and inclusiveness. I am certain that, hey God... Asherah... what's the difference, they thought. They couldn't be judgemental and hurt anyone's feelings. It's a new age and people must be open to the times. It was more important that Jews not be divided between God and Asherah worshippers and be 'united in love'.
Right on, Sam man.
The gays are going to infiltrate wherever they are allowed. It is our spiritual duty to keep them out.
... If you know gay people who are good and decent and loving, it is hard to condemn their lives as sinful. Personally, I do not feel a need to make that judgment....
Love the sinner, hate the sin. That's how you deal with it. We don't need to "make that judgement" because the Bible (a.k.a., The Word of God) already has. But it is not only homosexual acts that are condemned. All sex outside of marriage is wrong according to scripture. The same with stealing, lying, murder, rape, etc.
We are all sinners and we are all offered forgiveness for our sins through the amazing grace and mercy of God.
Book sounds interesting. don't have a lot of money these days maybe you could give me some info about the book.
I think it was pretty cheap. It entails reviewing two essasy written on the end times by two catholic priests about a century ago. They differ in some respects and details but they are used to illistrate the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaching on the end times. I found it very interesting because I find this something that the average Catholic person just does not know much about. It tells of secualar humanism becoming the new religion. How the world will turn aganist the Catholic Church. How most will be decieved including most of the Catholics and priests. How the Pope and just a few or a "little flock" will be left. How the church and christians will be persecuted just as Christ was. The figure of the Anti-
Christ is one of a pacifist, well educated, charming etc. He will bring about world peace(protestants believe this also) but he will demand at some point to do away with all religions except the new secualar humanism. Fr. Livio Fanzaga the author is a Scalopi Father.He has a Doctorate in Theology and Philosophy . He has a parochial ministry in the parish of St. Joseph Calasanizo in Milan.
Charlie Peppler has dealt with this issue in one of the most thoroughly orthodox Christian ways that I have seen:
http://oldmadenew.blogspot.com/2005/11/if-its-battle-whos-opponent.html
....
If it's a battle, who's the opponent?
We are in the middle of a battle. It doesn't take much to see it all around us. Hostile parish takeovers. Parishes being made extinct. Clergy being deposed. Lawsuits.
....
There's a lot more going on, and the battle we're in is part of what's been going on for thousands of years. What we're seeing is the modern expression of it.
....
Fast forward a couple of centuries to several of the more "advanced" societies such as Rome or ancient Greece, where homosexuality was built into the culture. It was a standard part of a young man's training to be "with" other men. Was a god doing "a new thing" then?
....
Well worth reading.
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