Posted on 11/23/2005 11:01:06 AM PST by NYer
ROME (Reuters) - A leader of an ultra-traditionalist Catholic group that broke with the Vatican said on Saturday that Pope Benedict should tell Jews and members of other religions to convert because they are part of "false systems".
Father Franz Schmidberger, a top official of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), also called on the Pope to invalidate excommunications imposed when its founder, the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, ordained bishops without permission.
The SSPX rejects the reforms of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council. It sticks to the old Latin mass and opposes recognizing the validity of other religions, particularly non-Christians.
"Other religions, as such, are false systems," said Schmidberger, who is the right-hand man of the traditionalists' current head, Bishop Bernard Fellay.
"Instead of leading their members to our Lord Jesus Christ, to Baptism and the confession of faith in his divinity, they refrain from this and so we consider these other religions as very dangerous," he told a news conference presenting a biography of Lefebvre.
"St Peter, the first pope, preached to the Jews and told them that 'if you want to be saved you must do three things: you must regret your sins and convert, believe in our lord Jesus Christ and, thirdly, be baptized,'" he said.
"We expect that every pope who claims to be the successor of St Peter and he (Benedict) is the successor of St Peter, should take the same stand in meetings with leaders of other religions and tell them the same three things," Schmidberger said.
DIALOGUE
Fellay and Schmidberger held talks with Benedict last August. But while Benedict shares the SSPX's concern for some parts of Catholic tradition and has encouraged wider use of Latin in the Church, he has vowed to continue the dialogue with other religions begun by his predecessor John Paul.
Benedict has met Jews, Protestants and Muslims. In August he visited a synagogue in his native Germany.
The late pope sanctioned the excommunication of the traditionalist leaders in 1988 when they defied his warnings and went ahead with the bishops' ordinations without permission.
The SSPX, which sees itself as the guardian of true Catholicism, now has four bishops and some 450 priests around the world.
Schmidberger said the group had two basic prerequisites for dialogue with the Vatican
The first was an indult that would allow the unconditional return of the old-style Latin mass, which was sidelined after the Second Vatican Council opted for services in local languages.
Saying the Latin mass now requires approval from local bishops, who are often reluctant to make exceptions for a tiny minority in their dioceses.
The second prerequisite was that the excommunications imposed on the group in 1988 be declared invalid.
One of the best-known traditionalist Catholics is actor Mel Gibson but it is not clear if he supports the SSPX, which is based at the rebel seminary Lefebvre ran in Switzerland.
Second Conclusion: Judaism is inimical to all nations in general, and in a special manner to Christian nations. It plays the part of Ishmael who persecuted Isaac, of Esau who sought to kill Jacob, and of Cain who put Abel to death. ...
Take note of St. Paul’s terrible and very important fact, written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, the adversarial relationship of the Jewish people is not a local enmity, or one based on blood, or on conflicting interests. It is an enmity disposed by God. The Jewish people, if it has not converted to Christianity, will, even if it does not wish to, seek to ruin Christianity, as Jesus Christ said when speaking to the Pharisees:
"You are of your father the devil, and the desire of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof." (Jn. 8:44)
Fourth Conclusion: Ever since Christ was lifted up on Mount Calvary, the world has been subjected to two truly opposite forces: the Jewish force and the Christian. In the world as it is, there can be only two truly basic modes, two poles of attraction: the Christian and the Jewish. Only two religions: Christian and Jewish. All that is not of Christ and for Christ is done in favor of Judaism. It follows from that, that the de-Christianizing of the world runs parallel to its Judaizing. Why are only these two modes possible? Because they are the only ones willed by God, they are the only theological ones. God has divided the world between Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, and Christ and the Anti-Christ. All human energies must serve one front or the other. That is why the Gentile peoples, we to whom the vocation to the Catholic Church is freely offered, have only two roads ahead to us: to Christianize ourselves or to Judaize ourselves, to be part of the Olive Tree of the Church or of the sterile Vine of Judaism, to be sons of Sarah the free woman, or else of Hagar the bondwoman. If the Gentile people wishes to be free and great, it has no other solution than to humbly adhere to the Catholic Church. It can have no other greatness than the incomparable greatness of the Christian nations of the Middle Ages, which forged saints and heroes, raised the cathedrals, educated the peoples by the examples of the saints, gave them an understanding of beauty by Gregorian Chant and the frescoes of Fra Angelico and Giotto, and elevated their understanding with the Summa Theologica of the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas. If the Gentile people now considers this genuine greatness of the medieval age as gloomy or obscurantist, and wishes to be great with the material greatness of Babylon, then it can have it: but only as a servant of Judaism. In the domain of the material, it is the Jewish people who have the superiority. History tells us (Werner Sombart) that the renowned greatness of English and American Capitalism is only a Judaic creation. While Capitalism fulfills its promises and is unquestionably of incomparable material greatness, it compromises the work of millions of Christians for the benefit of a much smaller number of the Jewish people.Moreover, the segregation and blockade oif commerce with Jews is suggested:
Sixth Conclusion: Under pain of sin, Catholics cannot hate the Jewish people, cannot persecute them or prevent them to live, nor disturb them in their private practice of their laws and customs. But, they must nevertheless preserve themselves from the danger they represent. Catholics are not to enter into commercial, social, nor political relations which are bound hypocritically to seek the ruin of Christendom. Jews must not live together with Christians because this is what their own Jewish laws ordain and also because their errors and material superiority have virulent consequences among other peoples. If the other peoples reject these precautions, they will invite upon themselves these consequences, namely, to serve the Jewish people to whom belongs superiority in the kingdom of the material.
4. Jews are known to kill Christians. Already St. Justin (3rd century) said so. The Talmud allows it. History confirms it. It is certain that lives of Christians have been taken: St. William of York, 12 years old (1144); St. Richard of Paris (1179); St. Dominic de Val, crucified at Saragossa, Spain (1250); Bl. Henry of Munich (1345); Bl. Simeon (1475); the controversial martyrdoms of Fr. Thomas of Cangiano and his aide (1840) in Damascus.
As grisly as they are, these four accusations can be documented in every period and country where Jews live with Christians. In earlier times the Jews could only act directly against Christians who were well-cautioned about them. But now that Christians are de-Christianized, the Jews pursue their aggression with the help of the Christians themselves.
Please read the following articles and tell me how SSPX is not anti-Jewish.
http://www.romancatholicism.org/bp-williamson.htm
http://www.wandea.org.pl/richard-williamson.htm
http://www.wquercus.com/sungenis/
You would be incorrect then.
I will not attempt to defend every accusation made against the SSPX, all I will say is that you will not find anything on their website that is incompatible with traditional Catholic belief or teaching, although there might be much to alarm the politically correct thought police. And back to the topic of this article, Fr. Schmidberger is not advocating anything new, he is just restating traditional Catholic teaching, and requesting that the pope do the same.
As head of the Holy Office, do you imagine that Josef Cardinal Ratzinger was not consulted by JP II on the just ecclesiastical judgment and punishment of Marcel and his minions?
If B-XVI or ANY pope rules otherwise, I will follow, but no bureaucrat and no schismatic are empowered to overrule JP II's judgments against SSPX and its living leaders and adherents.
I suspect that dead Marcel is now beyond any mercy that may be extended. Unrepentant death often has that effect. Perhaps, he had a grace of final repentance. As my actually Catholic Jesuit teachers of the early 1960s taught, given the possibility of a grace of final repentance and the possible availability of a perfect act of contrition by the miscreant, even Stalin and Hitler may not be in hell. Likewise, dead Marcel, but one would be prudent not to bet one's eternal destination on any of them having made heaven.
It is a good idea to familiarize yourself fully with one SSPX bishop, Bishop Williamson, of the original Econe 4 and his curious views of the Holocaust and most other matters. Even ultima ratio would not defend Williamson.
Its a good idea for you to take a good look at the fruits of Vatican ll...so you "go" for Communion in the hand,no confession,the altar??? oh where art thou Holy Altar?? women priests and servers,belly dancing at the "service" or clown "masses" with real hot dogs and pop being the 'bread and wine'..devorice upon devorice..accepting as if the Catholic religion means NOTHING other sects?..been through it saw it and NO WAY IS THIS the the Catholic Faith! ..SSPX has what it takes NOT SCHISM--look up the word..they NEVER started their own Faith or ever broke off Tradition--of the Catholic Faith..
As our Lady of LASalette said..."in 1864.."Rome would lose the Faith!"....
As for JPll...he knows now what he should have done ! God have mercy on his soul!
Good reply MurphE,,Happy Thanksgiving!
I see that the "All Became Lost After Vatican II" crowd has crawled out from under its rocks--and is now instructing the Pope on how to run not only the Church, but the rest of the world as well.
Talk about Globaloney!
I know about the Jewish thing, but the Satanist thing?
SSPX ,pray everyday in the Old Latin Tridentine MAss,and in all their rosaries for the POPE.
They stand not against him or Christ's teachings-but against the mondernism,liberalism and destructive ways of the New Ordo...the Pope knows this too.
To stand against abominations -that destort the Faith the ,or the Mass or the Sacraments is commendable-thats how many of the saints were made. SSPX has spend 40 yrs, standing with the FAITH,NEVER CHANGING! (QUO PRIMUM)..Vatican ll split the Catholic Church into millions of assorted,un gluable pieces!
Fr. Conrade Altenbach and many other priest Ordained in the 1940-50's--would tell you why they say Only the Old Latin MAss! Many prayers go daily for the Pope that he maight bring back the TRUE reverence,of the OLD WAYS!
They are not instructing the POPE..but REMINDING him of WHY he is Pope,what his duties are..souls -are his business! and there is no rule anywhere thats says a reminding is a sin..
No, I did not read what you quoted, but I have read that article on the SSPX website quite a while ago, the way it was meant to be read, in context.
And nothing in it is incompatible to traditional Catholic teaching.
Happy Thanksgiving.
And a Blessed Thanksgiving Day to you too Rosary!
1. I have NEVER received Communion in the hand and I never will.
2. I have NEVER received Communion from a Eucharistic Minister or Mistress or whatever they are called and I would do so only if I were homebound, unable to travel and could not find a priest or deacon to bring me the Eucharist. This is a personal peference and not a Catholic doctrine. Call me old-fashioned! Just the kinda Elk I am.
3. I confess my sins only individually and only through individual confession to a priest (preferably in a traditional confessional box although receiving absolution is far too important for us to be overly fussy as to the noin-essentials or incidentals) and then only to a priest in good standing, a non-schismatic priest, a priest who serves under the authority of and with faculties from my quite Catholic DIOCESAN ORDINARY, Bishop Thomas Doran or an equivalent TERRITORIAL diocesan bishop.
4. My preference in altars is that they be oriented so that the priest faces the altar with his back to the congregation but this too is a preference and NOT DOCTRINAL. The vitally important thing about the altar is that it be the location where a priest, duly ordained by the Roman Catholic Church, in communion with the pope and under the authority of and with faculties granted by his diocesan ordinary, says the Mass, under whatever rubrics may be approved for the purpose by the Vatican, in which the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the Cross is made immanent upon the altar and the bread and wine become, through the miracle of transubstantiation, the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savor, Jesus Christ while retaining the outward appearances of bread and wine. Such Holy Altars are found in, well, Roman Catholic Churches. While schismatic priests are priests nonetheless, they lack faculties from diocesan authorities, are not in communion with the Vatican and the pope and are not in communion with their diocesan bishops. The Masses of SSPX schismatics are on a par with those of the Eastern Orthodox and may be resorted to in genuine emergencies not Marcellian-concocted taste emergencies but resorting to them is quite disrespectful of the Roman Catholic Church and its duly constituted authorities and a bad habit and, of course, the near occasion of sin (schism, scandal, etc.) and on a par with hanging out at a cat house in order to preserve one's virtue or with skin-popping heroin while telling yourself that you are not addicted. It can be done (in spite of schismatic propaganda that abounds to seduce foolish Catholics into the misery of SSPX schism which just LOVES company) but the effort occurs in a sewer of persistent rebellious temptation.
5. No belly dancing has been discovered at regular diocesan Masses here in Rockford, neither at the Novus Ordo Masses, nor at the Institute of Christ the King Masses at St. Mary's Oratory, nor at the Tridentine or other Masses at St. Patrick's in Rockford. Hysteria does not become the schizzies but it IS their way of life. They are to Catholicism as disloyal as Nancy Pelosi is to America and any lie that will serve their perfidious and schismatic purposes will be told.
6. Never heard of consecrated hot dogs (an oxymoron in any event since only appropriate bread and wine may be transubstantiated as you would know if you were attending Catholic churches rather than schismatic moonbat churches). Never heard of consecrated soda pop or any other pop for that matter, either, and for the same reason. I have heard of "clown Masses." Of course, soi dissant Bishop Williamson is a clown.... but I have heard of "Masses" where the priest did not merely think as a clown might think but also dressed as one might dress. This is disrespectful and evidences a disordered Kumbaya sort of (something or other that is the Kumbaya equivalent of "mind" vacuum????) "mindset" that deserves involuntary cloister for life at least in a world which has regrettably abandoned the iron maiden and the rack and the stake. Sort of like the appropriate resolution of SSPX schismatics and particularly their bishops and priests and lay leaders.
7. What is "devorice upon devorice?" Is this the SSPX spelling for divorce upon divorce, in which the SSPX cognitive problem of "Just what part of schismatic and excommunicated" as used in Ecclesia Dei as the ruling of Pope John Paul II do you NOT understand(?????) becomes more obvious as a need for lessons in English and reading. Small wonder you are so confused. Maybe it means "licorice upon licorice?" or "device upon device" or whatever. One regrettably concludes that "devorice upon devorice" is undecipherable gibberish and that the reader cannot very well understand such gibberish. Worse, one seems forced to conclude that those who utter such as "devorice upon devorice" don't understand it either and further that they are not capable of doing so.
8. You have it reversed as to cults since SSPX apparently believes that its little oompah band cult of malignant disrespect and defiance and anti-papal hoopla somehow IS the Roman Catholic Church when, in fact, the Roman Catholic Church from which SSPX is a schism and from which its bishops and "adherents" have been papally expelled, IS the Roman Catholic Church. A is A. 10. I prefer my Masses brisk and Tridentine but can certainly fulfill my Sunday obligation at Novus Ordo Masses as well as can you should you ever decide to abandon the schism and return to communion with Rome after rejecting Marcellian upstartism.
11. I am no more interested in your notions that SSPX is somehow not the scism that it was ruled by JP II to be than I am interested in any non-papal theory that Marcel, the Econe 4, their successors in schism or the adherents of SSPX are ot excommunicated. They are. JP II so ruled. B-XVI has nt modif9ed or changed those rulings in the slightest.
12. Roma Locuta. Causa Finita!!!!
13. Rome has long been a city with an actually communist government. Rome has lost the Faith. The Vatican and the popes have NOT lost the Faith. Excommunicated as are each and every one of your SSPX bishops and "adherents," no self-serving delusionist SSPXer is in any position to sit in judgment upon pope, Church or Faith any more than a Zen Buddhist might or a Zoroastrian or a worshipper of Ra. If you adhere to SSPX, you are no longer Catholic. Get as angry as an anti-Bush moveon.org moonbat but it does not provide logic for your argument. Also, need I remind you that the appearances of Our Lady of LaSallette (in which I believe) are nonetheless PRIVATE REVELATION and not required as a belief of any Catholic? YOPIOSEPR (your own personal interpretation of someone else's private revelation, a species of "spiritual" hearsay) is no more authoritative than are the Scriptural interpretations and convenient opinions of any red-hot tongue-speaking pastor of the Union Band Church of Jesus Christ Fire Baptized (or whatever)/storefront division.
14. At the risk of encouraging you in schism, I will certainly agree that belly dancing, "consecrated" soda pop and "consecrated hot dogs have no place in Catholicism, but thejn no one credible ever said they did. Try to remember through the schismatic fog that no "tradition" that rejects papal authority is a Catholic tradition. None ever will be.
15. Lions and tigers and bears!!!!! Oh, my!!!!!
16. John Paul the Great certainly now knows what he should have done and when he excommunicated Marcel and company, he did what he should have done. Marcel also knows what Marcel should not have done and, in the absence of a grace of sincere final repentance, suffers for it. Try not to share Marcel's fate.
Now, if Jesus meant that all Jews were spawn of Satan, did that include his apostles? Joseph??? Mary??????? Himself?????? One doubts it since all of them were Jews. More likely Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said and directed that judgment only to the Pharisees and Fr. Whazzisname of SSPX has no authority whatsoever to spread the accusation to all Jews any more than he has some business figuratively spitting in the face of the papacy by adhering to SSPX or calling himself Catholic when he is excluded by his schism.
rmlew: I take it that you understand that what you cited in #21 is not an expresson of actual Catholicism. We Catholics have certainly offended without justification in numerous ways but I assure you that we are NOT required to subscribe to the nutty theories of SSPX. In fact, quite the contrary. May you be blessed.
SSPX supports the pope the way Nancy Pelosi and Ted the Driver support our troops trying in every way to arrange their defeat.
Anyone who expects to have their sins forgiven
must plead the Blood of Y'shua, the Lamb of G-d to cover their sins.
I accept the fact that Y'shua died for my sins
therefore I personally am responsible for the death of Y'shua.
b'shem Y'shua
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