Posted on 11/13/2005 12:46:30 PM PST by NYer
I made sure my current bible has these books in the old testament.
The Gospel says in the first case, that the debtor shall be sold, with the family, and the debt paid out of the proceeds. But "sold" implies that he stays sold even though the debt is paid off. The Gospel also indicates that the debt can be paid off because the Lord says so in v 25 and the debtor promises so in v. 26. That is, the payment is finite and the punishment is infinite.
In the second case, that he should be tortured till he pays back. The punishment is reduced to the payment itself, and from the previous verses we know it is not infinite.
Learn to read.
The word Purgatory is not in the Bible. Nor is Trinity. The scenario in the parable describes the Purgatory functionally, just like some other verses describe the Trinity functionally, without naming it. Christ taught through parables for those with ears (and a reading ability) to hear.
Now it is true that the doctrine of Purgatory is relatively minor. Our Orthodox sister Church does not have it spelled out, although we agree on the fundamentals, -- that a purification is required before most justified can enjoy the beatific vision; if that purification did not occur through martyrdom in this life, it happens after death. This is a logical way to reconcile the absolute character of justification with the Divine justice and with the observable fact that different men sin differently and in different measure. So, even if Luther had succeeded in banning the Gospel of Matthew alongside the Maccabees, the doctrine would still stand. In fact, since the Church has the Incarnate Word at all times and for all eternity, we shall be doing fine regardless what else you guys decide to ban, chop off or amputate, -- Christ told us so.
Slight correction ... God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 20:38 - and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
" Slight correction ... God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family."
Sorry, I was just using what I thought was established Catholic terminology.
Prayers for the Dead
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm
That is true, the technical term is prayer for the Church Suffering or "for the souls in Purgatory".
On another note: It is true that the Maccabee soldiers apparently had committed a mortal sin, which should according to the teaching of the Church send them to Hell and not Purgatory. But then, firstly, we are not attempting to re-create the Jewish theology of the period.
Secodnly, they prayed for them, so they hoped for Divine mercy, given in particular that they were, in Christian parlance, martyrs for the faith regardless of the sin. Martyrdom helps to redeem sin, and in the Christian era we should not presume that a Christian soldier died in mortal sin despite any evidence that he did. Despite some deviations known to happen in the past, a Mass for the dead can be offered for all regardless of any presumptions one might make about their state at death. In fact we are told by Christ not to judge the state of another man's soul. We are to hope that mercy was given the deceased, and should he in fact be condemned to Hell, no sin is committed by praying for his soul anyway.
That, perhaps, is too broad. Some cases are restricted to a private mass, and an unrepentant sinner who was excommunicated, or whose apostasy gave scandal, cannot be buried in the Church, nor can the unbaptized. But the tradition asks these rules to be interpreted most liberally, so that whenever a chance of repentance exists, the benefit is afforded. See details under PetroniusMaximus's link in 124.
However, we do speak of redemptive value of suffering as it reflects in our life the suffering of Christ. St. Paul speaks of individual suffering completing the work of the redemptive suffering of Christ in Col 1:24. For more scripture on the participating in the redemptive work of Christ, see SUFFERING.
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelations 5:8
How does Rev 5:8 relate to the issue of prayers for the dead...
.. or for the "un-alive" or "living-challenged" or whatever you want to call them.
:)
"Respiration impaired."
"Kinetically challenged."
"Necro-Americans" (or whatever nationality)
Thank you, that is very good, regardless of everything else.
You inaccurate and condescended reply was. ”Well ... er ... apparently, you didn't bother to read the post. In case you missed it ....”
No, sir/madam – the apocryphal writings remain errant and were added to your Bible as canon as stated. I do not accept your Roman Catholic apologist’s argument for them as valid.
Then you should be able to produce a Bible without the Deuterocanonical books dating between the Councils of Carthage (which listed them as canonical) and Trent.
How many times have you read the Bible cover to cover?
That question gets 'em every time.
You're in competition with someone?
Never. I don't read it cover to cover, but I read it daily, and I read the Church Fathers with some regularity.
When are you going to show us a pre-Trent Bible without the Deuterocanon?
ANSWER: ” Never. I don't read it cover to cover”
I rest my case.
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