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1 posted on 11/12/2005 10:15:18 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Yesterday "Born Again", Today "The Bible". Hope this compenses for any gaps in your own catholic education.


2 posted on 11/12/2005 10:17:00 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; jude24

Let's say that the Apostle Paul had been put on ice in a cryogenic experiment back in about 65 AD.

The Catholic Church discovers him frozen away in a catacomb and excitedly verifies, "Yep, this is that old St Paul."

Everyone's excited because they've identified Paul.

Some scientist says, "Let's unfreeze him." They do, and he lives!

Now, who do you listen to ---

The Apostle Paul who's living, breathing, and talking to you, OR do you ignore Paul and his words and say, "Alright everyone, that church over there...they're the ones who found him, so listen to them. They're the final authority....not Paul."


3 posted on 11/12/2005 10:25:46 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: NYer

The Word is inspired by God. God used people and yes even The Church to get His message across. Churches and people (including popes) are infallible, only God is not. It is possible for me to believe the Bible and not belive Catholic dogma. And that is what I do. Let God be the judge if I do right or wrong.


4 posted on 11/12/2005 10:35:49 AM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I looked in my rearview mirror.)
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To: NYer

"Most Protestants are at a loss ...."

Now I though, dear NYer, that you didn't like to fight.

:)


7 posted on 11/12/2005 10:42:42 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer
What beautiful logic! Here is the summary: Douglas Wilson-bad, all protestants-stupid, Mormonism-burning bosom. Based on this, it can categorically be said that the Catholic Bible is correct because the Church is infallible. I totally get it now.
8 posted on 11/12/2005 10:44:12 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: NYer
"He needs an authoritative collector to affirm their inspiration. That collector must be something other than an internal feeling. It must be an authoritative — and, yes, infallible Church."

Subjectively, Jesus said...

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - John 8

and even more strikingly in John 7...

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority."

So you see, it is possible that one can have an authentic inner assurance of the words of Christ. This is something that is deeper that mere mental ascent - it is an inner moral conviction that what Christ says is true - but it only comes to those who are willing to obey what they read.




Now objectively, how did the early Church (pre canon) arrive at the inspiration and canonisity of an early work? Did THEY rely on an "authoritative infallible Church" - of course not. They arrived at it based on the spiritual nature of it's content, it's proximity to an Apostolic figure, and it's universal acceptance.

Why can not the same criterion hold true for believers today as it did for those of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd centuries?
10 posted on 11/12/2005 10:58:50 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer

Yay Keating! I hope to see more.


12 posted on 11/12/2005 11:13:21 AM PST by AliVeritas (Weldon Ops, Earle Fatwa Team, Pork Jihadi, MOOSEMUSS, Stick Brigade, Go Steele)
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To: NYer

You've provoked a very interesting discussion. I think, however, the Protestant vs. Roman Catholic way of dealing with scripture as you've characterized it, while it contains much that is true, also omits much that makes the two traditions more similar than opposed -- in some ways that would surprise most ordinary catholics and non-catholics. If you'd like to discuss this by private post, please advise. P.S. Bible comes from the Greek "biblios" (forgive the perhaps sloppy transliteration) meaning "book".


18 posted on 11/12/2005 12:23:32 PM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: NYer

Absurd. Aside from a "burning in the heart" or other such irrational reason, why would one accept the alleged "authority" of any church?

The Scriptures can be analyzed rationally and logically.


25 posted on 11/12/2005 1:27:51 PM PST by Sloth ("I don't think I've done a good job for 25 years" -- Mary Mapes. "I agree." -- Sloth)
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To: NYer
The most damning argument against the Holy Spirit "assuring" each individual reader of the scriptures is the fact that it it were true, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, Spirit of Truth seems to be playing head games with people. .

You get 10 protestants from 10 different denomiations together and ask them to interpret 1 passage from scripture for you and you are likely to get 10 different answers. Hence we get a new denomination every 2 days in the US on average.

Ya, someone is "assuring" these people of their interpretation, but it ain't the Holy Spirit, who is God and neither wishes to deceive nor can He be deceived.

The fact is, human beings cannot stand authority - we rebel against it constantly. We just can't stop believing the first lie of the serpent - God is a tyrant whose rules are preventing us from attaining true happiness. This is the lie that keeps on giving

26 posted on 11/12/2005 1:41:44 PM PST by kjvail (Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta)
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To: NYer
I really do not wish to get caught up in another Protestant vs. Catholic brawl. However, since the author mentioned "Mormons," I must correct an error.

The Book of Mormon says nothing about a "burning in the bosom." That idea is found in the Bible (Luke 24:32) and in the Doctrine and Covenants (9:8).

The Book of Mormon does promise that God will answer a sincere, faithful prayer:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10:4)

This verse says that God will manifest the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost; but it does not say in what form that manifestation will come. The "burning" that some speak of is not experienced by all. God may reveal truth in other ways.

31 posted on 11/12/2005 2:26:59 PM PST by Logophile
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To: NYer

Which came first? The Church or the Bible?

Answer: the Church


40 posted on 11/12/2005 4:27:10 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
Most Protestants are at a loss when asked how they know that the 66 books in their Bibles belong in it.

I am sorry, but that just isn't true. I suppose there are those who think it is, but it is not.

48 posted on 11/12/2005 5:40:06 PM PST by ladyinred ("Progressive" = code word for Communist/Nazi)
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To: NYer

The counterexample used in the article is the Book of Mormon, which for sake of argument, I agree with the implication of the article that the Book of Mormon is false doctrine.

In studying Scripture we use a principle of ICE, (Isogogics, Categories, and Exogesis)

Isagogics is defined as the interpretation of the Bible in the time in which it was written.

Revelation is discernible from Inspiration.
The Word of God is Truth and nothing in it is not harmonized with other proper verse. The Book of Mormon fails to meet that criterion so fails as properly being inspired as Scripture.

Categories is defined as comparing Scripture with Scripture in the study of one particular subject.

Exegesis is defined as the study of the etymology, grammar, and syntax of the original languages of Scripture.


55 posted on 11/12/2005 6:35:55 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: NYer

Good article.
This gives me another opportunity to ask some questions of my Protestant brethren. Did Martin Luther claim that the Catholic Church did not have or no longer had the authority to determine what the canon of Scripture would be? Did he claim the authority to decide the "true" canon? If he decided, then could I take some other writings that I consider holy and add those and call it the canon?
I ask these questions in earnest.


64 posted on 11/12/2005 8:52:14 PM PST by TradicalRC (Searching Free Republic with lantern aloft for an answer...)
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To: NYer

***Some Protestants claim that they do have a way of knowing,***

In some of the Cambridge KJV bibles there is a section "From the Translator to The Reader". which delves into this.

That section is not in most KJV bibles today.


71 posted on 11/12/2005 9:58:35 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Nightmares tonight thinking of the CARTER YEARS!)
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To: NYer
Keating is a hypocrite. The Bible is written in Hebrew and belongs to `Am Yisra'el.

The Protestant ignorance of the origin of the Bible is a mere mirror image of Catholic/Orthodox ignorance.

90 posted on 11/13/2005 7:50:53 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vehe'emin BeHaShem, vayachsheveha lo tzedaqah.)
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To: NYer
Whose Bible Is It, Anyway?

It is not man's book.
It is the Holy Word of G-d.

If man wants to know G-d,
you read the book with the illumination
of the Ruach haKodesh
and you will know G-d!

b'shem Y'shua

132 posted on 11/14/2005 7:44:52 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: NYer

Bumpus ad summum


136 posted on 11/15/2005 5:57:43 PM PST by Dajjal
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