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Whose Bible Is It, Anyway?
Catholic Educators Network ^ | Karl Keating

Posted on 11/12/2005 10:15:17 AM PST by NYer

The most overlooked part of the Bible, apologetically speaking, is the table of contents.

It does more than just tell us the pages on which the constituent books begin. It tells us that the Bible is a collection of books, and that implies a collector. The identity of the collector is what chiefly distinguishes the Protestant from the Catholic.

Douglas Wilson knows this. Writing in Credenda Agenda, a periodical espousing the Reformed faith, he notes that “the problem with contemporary Protestants is that they have no doctrine of the table of contents. With the approach that is popular in conservative Evangelical circles, one simply comes to the Bible by means of an epistemological lurch. The Bible ‘just is,’ and any questions about how it got here are dismissed as a nuisance. But time passes, the questions remain unanswered, the silence becomes awkward, and conversions of thoughtful Evangelicals to Rome proceed apace.”

Most Protestants are at a loss when asked how they know that the 66 books in their Bibles belong in it. (They are at an even greater loss to explain why the seven additional books appearing in Catholic Bibles are missing from theirs.) For them the Bible “just is.” They take it as a given. It never occurs to most of them that they ought to justify its existence. All Christians agree that the books that make up the Bible are inspired, meaning that God somehow guided the sacred authors to write all of, and only, what he wished. They wrote, most of them, without any awareness that they were being moved by God. As they wrote, God used their natural talents and their existing ways of speech. Each book of the Bible is an image not only of the divine Inspirer but of the all-too-human author. So how do we know whether Book A is inspired while Book B is not? A few unsophisticated Protestants are satisfied with pointing to the table of contents, as though that modern addition somehow validates the inspiration of the 66 books, but many Protestants simply shrug and admit that they don’t know why they know the Bible consists of inspired books and only inspired books. Some Protestants claim that they do have a way of knowing, a kind of internal affirmation that is obtained as they read the text.

Wilson cites the Westminster Confession — the 1647 Calvinist statement of faith — which says that the Holy Spirit provides “full persuasion and assurance” regarding Scripture to those who are converted. The converted,” says Wilson, “are in turn enabled to see the other abundant evidences, which include the testimony of the Church.” But the “testimony of the Church” cannot be definitive or binding since the Church may err, according to Protestant lights. (Protestants do not believe the Church is infallible when it teaches.) What really counts is the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit. Without it, the Protestant is at a loss — but, even with it, he is at a loss. When young Mormon missionaries come to your door, they ask you to accept a copy of the Book of Mormon. You hesitate, but they say that all they want is for you to read the text and ask God to give you a sign that the text is inspired. They call this sign the “burning in the bosom.” If you feel uplifted, moved, prodded toward the good or true — if you feel “inspired,” in the colloquial rather than theological sense of that word — as you read the Book of Mormon, then that is supposed to be proof that Joseph Smith’s text is from God.

A moment’s thought will show that the “burning in the bosom” proves too much. It proves not only that the Book of Mormon is inspired but that your favorite secular poetry is inspired. You can get a similar feeling anytime you read an especially good novel (or, for some people, even a potboiler) or a thrilling history or an intriguing biography. Are all these books inspired? Of course not, and that shows that the “burning in the bosom” may be a good propaganda device but is a poor indicator of divine authorship.

Back to the Protestant. The “full persuasion and assurance” of the Westminster Confession is not readily distinguishable from Mormonism’s “burning in the bosom.” You read a book of the Bible and are “inspired” by it — and that proves its inspiration. The sequence is easy enough to experience in reading the Gospels, but I suspect no one ever has felt the same thing when reading the two books of Chronicles. They read like dry military statistics because that is what they largely are.

Neither the simplistic table-of-contents approach nor the more sophisticated Westminster Confession approach will do. The Christian needs more than either if he is to know for certain that the books of the Bible come ultimately from God. He needs an authoritative collector to affirm their inspiration. That collector must be something other than an internal feeling. It must be an authoritative — and, yes, infallible Church.


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1 posted on 11/12/2005 10:15:18 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Yesterday "Born Again", Today "The Bible". Hope this compenses for any gaps in your own catholic education.


2 posted on 11/12/2005 10:17:00 AM PST by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; jude24

Let's say that the Apostle Paul had been put on ice in a cryogenic experiment back in about 65 AD.

The Catholic Church discovers him frozen away in a catacomb and excitedly verifies, "Yep, this is that old St Paul."

Everyone's excited because they've identified Paul.

Some scientist says, "Let's unfreeze him." They do, and he lives!

Now, who do you listen to ---

The Apostle Paul who's living, breathing, and talking to you, OR do you ignore Paul and his words and say, "Alright everyone, that church over there...they're the ones who found him, so listen to them. They're the final authority....not Paul."


3 posted on 11/12/2005 10:25:46 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: NYer

The Word is inspired by God. God used people and yes even The Church to get His message across. Churches and people (including popes) are infallible, only God is not. It is possible for me to believe the Bible and not belive Catholic dogma. And that is what I do. Let God be the judge if I do right or wrong.


4 posted on 11/12/2005 10:35:49 AM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I looked in my rearview mirror.)
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To: xzins

"Now, who do you listen to --- "

Brilliant xzins, brilliant!


5 posted on 11/12/2005 10:40:40 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: BipolarBob

oops I meant fallible instead of infallible.


6 posted on 11/12/2005 10:40:49 AM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I looked in my rearview mirror.)
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To: NYer

"Most Protestants are at a loss ...."

Now I though, dear NYer, that you didn't like to fight.

:)


7 posted on 11/12/2005 10:42:42 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer
What beautiful logic! Here is the summary: Douglas Wilson-bad, all protestants-stupid, Mormonism-burning bosom. Based on this, it can categorically be said that the Catholic Bible is correct because the Church is infallible. I totally get it now.
8 posted on 11/12/2005 10:44:12 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: PetroniusMaximus

You are very kind.


9 posted on 11/12/2005 10:51:26 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: NYer
"He needs an authoritative collector to affirm their inspiration. That collector must be something other than an internal feeling. It must be an authoritative — and, yes, infallible Church."

Subjectively, Jesus said...

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - John 8

and even more strikingly in John 7...

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority."

So you see, it is possible that one can have an authentic inner assurance of the words of Christ. This is something that is deeper that mere mental ascent - it is an inner moral conviction that what Christ says is true - but it only comes to those who are willing to obey what they read.




Now objectively, how did the early Church (pre canon) arrive at the inspiration and canonisity of an early work? Did THEY rely on an "authoritative infallible Church" - of course not. They arrived at it based on the spiritual nature of it's content, it's proximity to an Apostolic figure, and it's universal acceptance.

Why can not the same criterion hold true for believers today as it did for those of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd centuries?
10 posted on 11/12/2005 10:58:50 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: xzins
Scripture and Paul are not the same. Paul is a person. His words aren't.
Now, my dear brethren, consider, are not these two states or acts of mind quite distinct from each other;--to believe simply what a living authority tells you, and to take a book such as Scripture, and to use it as you please, to master it, that is, to make yourself the master of it, to interpret it for yourself, and to admit just what you choose to see in it, and nothing more? Are not these two procedures distinct in this, that in the former you submit, in the latter you judge? At this moment I am not asking you which is the better, I am not asking whether this or that is practicable now, but are they not two ways of taking up a doctrine, and not one? is not submission quite contrary to judging? Now, is it not certain that faith in the time of the Apostles consisted in submitting? and is it not certain that it did not consist in judging for one's self. It is in vain to say that the man who judges from the Apostle's writings, does submit to those writings in the first instance, and therefore has faith in them; else why should he refer to them at all? There is, I repeat, an essential difference between the act of submitting to a living oracle, and to his written words; in the former case there is no appeal from the speaker, in the latter the final decision remains with the reader. Consider how different is the confidence with which you report another's words in his presence and in his absence. If he be absent, you boldly say that he holds so and so, or said so and so; but let him come into the room in the midst of the conversation, and your tone is immediately changed. It is then, 'I THINK I have heard you say something LIKE this, or what I TOOK to be this'; or you modify considerably the statement or the fact to which you originally pledged him, dropping one half of it for safety sake, or retrenching the most startling portions of it; and then after all you wait with some anxiety to see whether he will accept any portion of it at all. The same sort of process takes place in the case of the written document of a person now dead. I can fancy a man magisterially expounding St. Paul's Epistle to the Galatians or to the Ephesians, who would be better content with the writer's absence than his sudden re-appearance among us; lest the Apostle should take his own meaning out of his commentator's hands and explain it for himself. In a word, though he says he has faith in St. Paul's writings, he confessedly has no faith in St. Paul; and though he may speak much about truth as found in Scripture, he has no wish at all to be like one of these Christians whose names and deeds occur in it. (Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman, Discourses to Mixed Congregations, "Faith and Private Judgment", 199-201)

11 posted on 11/12/2005 11:10:14 AM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: NYer

Yay Keating! I hope to see more.


12 posted on 11/12/2005 11:13:21 AM PST by AliVeritas (Weldon Ops, Earle Fatwa Team, Pork Jihadi, MOOSEMUSS, Stick Brigade, Go Steele)
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To: NYer

Here we go again more "Born Again" bashing.

Go ahead take you best shots we're use to it.

GOD still loves us and you.


13 posted on 11/12/2005 11:14:17 AM PST by wmfights (lead, follow, or get out of the way)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Who said this?


From all this you can now judge all the books and decide among them which are the best.

. . . John's Gospel is the one, tender, true chief Gospel, far, far to be preferred to the other three and placed high above them. So, too, the Epistles of St. Paul and St. Peter far surpass the other three Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and good for you to know, even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to them; for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.

Or this on the Book of Revelation:

I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. . . . I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it . . .

It is just the same as if we had it not, and there are many far better books for us to keep.

. . . Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. There is one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it, -- Christ is not taught or known in it; but to teach Christ is the thing which an apostle is bound, above all else, to do, as He says in Acts 1, 'Ye shall be my witnesses.' Therefore I stick to the books which give me Christ, clearly and purely.


Looks like a far better way to choose...


14 posted on 11/12/2005 11:24:59 AM PST by AliVeritas (Weldon Ops, Earle Fatwa Team, Pork Jihadi, MOOSEMUSS, Stick Brigade, Go Steele)
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To: gbcdoj

In my view, the Apostle Paul's words are preserved for me to read and heed. Cardinal Newman's words in no way approach the status of Paul's...words that Peter affirms as God-breathed scripture.

My point, however, is not to convince you of my position. My point is to offer an explanation for why I elevate scripture to the position that I do.

I consider it the word of the Apostles.

I hope that you can see that my position is not careless, but is thoughtful and desirous of nothing more than to be faithful to my King.


15 posted on 11/12/2005 11:26:02 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Now objectively, how did the early Church (pre canon) arrive at the inspiration and canonisity of an early work?

Perhaps we should quote the words of those closest to the period (this list by no means purports to be exhaustive. Feel free to cite other early writers on the subject).

It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. ... Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere. ... In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. ...

Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him. (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Adversus Haereses, III, 3-5)

Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. But even if a discussion from the Scriptures should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, (yet) the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: "With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong. From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule, by which men become Christians?" For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions. ... If, then, these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those moulds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the (said) churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savours of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. (Tertullian, On the Prescription of Heretics, XIX, XXI)
On the whole, then, if that is evidently more true which is earlier, if that is earlier which is from the very beginning, if that is from the beginning which has the apostles for its authors, then it will certainly be quite as evident, that that comes down from the apostles, which has been kept as a sacred deposit in the churches of the apostles. Let us see what milk the Corinthians drank from Paul; to what rule of faith the Galatians were brought for correction; what the Philippians, the Thessalonians, the Ephesians read by it; what utterance also the Romans give, so very near (to the apostles), to whom Peter and Paul conjointly bequeathed the gospel even sealed with their own blood. We have also St. John's foster churches. For although Marcion rejects his Apocalypse, the order of the bishops (thereof), when traced up to their origin, will yet rest on John as their author. In the same manner is recognised the excellent source of the other churches. I say, therefore, that in them (and not simply such of them as were rounded by apostles, but in all those which are united with them in the fellowship of the mystery of the gospel of Christ ) that Gospel of Luke which we are defending with all our might has stood its ground from its very first publication; whereas Marcion's Gospel is not known to most people, and to none whatever is it known without being at the same time condemned. It too, of course, has its churches, but specially its own----as late as they are spurious; and should you want to know their original, you will more easily discover apostasy in it than apostolicity, with Marcion forsooth as their founder, or some one of Marcion's swarm. Even wasps make combs; so also these Marcionites make churches. The same authority of the apostolic churches will afford evidence to the other Gospels also, which we possess equally through their means, and according to their usage----I mean the Gospels of John and Matthew----whilst that which Mark published may be affirmed to be Peter's whose interpreter Mark was. For even Luke's form of the Gospel men usually ascribe to Paul. And it may well seem that the works which disciples publish belong to their masters. Well, then, Marcion ought to be called to a strict account concerning these (other Gospels) also, for having omitted them, and insisted in preference on Luke; as if they, too, had not had free course in the churches, as well as Luke's Gospel, from the beginning. Nay, it is even more credible that they existed from the very beginning; for, being the work of apostles, they were prior, and coeval in origin with the churches themselves. But how comes it to pass, if the apostles published nothing, that their disciples were more forward in such a work; for they could not have been disciples, without any instruction from their masters? If, then, it be evident that these (Gospels) also were current in the churches, why did not Marcion touch them----either to amend them if they were adulterated, or to acknowledge them if they were uncorrupt? For it is but natural that they who were perverting the gospel, should be more solicitous about the perversion of those things whose authority they knew to be more generally received. Even the false apostles (were so called) on this very account, because they imitated the apostles by means of their falsification. In as far, then, as he might have amended what there was to amend, if found corrupt, in so far did he firmly imply that all was free from corruption which he did not think required amendment. In short, he simply amended what he thought was corrupt; though, indeed, not even this justly, because it was not really corrupt. For if the (Gospels) of the apostles have come down to us in their integrity, whilst Luke's, which is received amongst us, so far accords with their rule as to be on a par with them in permanency of reception in the churches, it clearly follows that Luke's Gospel also has come down to us in like integrity until the sacrilegious treatment of Marcion. In short, when Marcion laid hands on it, it then became diverse and hostile to the Gospels of the apostles. I will therefore advise his followers, that they either change these Gospels, however late to do so, into a conformity with their own, whereby they may seem to be in agreement with the apostolic writings (for they are daily retouching their work, as daily they are convicted by us); or else that they blush for their master, who stands self-condemned either way----when once he hands on the truth of the gospel conscience smitten, or again subverts it by shameless tampering. Such are the summary arguments which we use, when we take up arms against heretics for the faith of the gospel, maintaining both that order of periods, which rules that a late date is the mark of forgers, and that authority of churches which lends support to the tradition of the apostles; because truth must needs precede the forgery, and proceed straight from those by whom it has been handed on. (Tertullian, Against Marcion, IV, 5:1-7)
Since, in the beginning of this work, we promised to give, when needful, the words of the ancient presbyters and writers of the Church, in which they have declared those traditions which came down to them concerning the canonical books, and since Irenaeus was one of them, we will now give his words and, first, what he says of the sacred Gospels ... (Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, V, 8)
And since these things are so, the judgment of the book of Wisdom ought not to be repudiated, since for so long a course of years that book has deserved to be read in the Church of Christ from the station of the readers of the Church of Christ, and to be heard by all Christians, from bishops downwards, even to the lowest lay believers, penitents, and catechumens, with the veneration paid to divine authority. (St. Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints, §27)
But let us now go back to consider the third step here mentioned, for it is about it that I have set myself to speak and reason as the Lord shall grant me wisdom. The most skillful interpreter of the sacred writings, then, will be he who in the first place has read them all and retained them in his knowledge, if not yet with full understanding, still with such knowledge as reading gives,--those of them, at least, that are called canonical. For he will read the others with greater safety when built up in the belief of the truth, so that they will not take first possession of a weak mind, nor, cheating it with dangerous falsehoods and delusions, fill it with prejudices adverse to a sound understanding. Now, in regard to the canonical Scriptures, he must follow the judgment of the greater number of catholic churches; and among these, of course, a high place must be given to such as have been thought worthy to be the seat of an apostle and to receive epistles.

Accordingly, among the canonical Scriptures he will judge according to the following standard: to prefer those that are received by all the catholic churches to those which some do not receive. Among those, again, which are not received by all, he will prefer such as have the sanction of the greater number and those of greater authority, to such as are held by the smaller number and those of less authority. If, however, he shall find that some books are held by the greater number of churches, and others by the churches of greater authority (though this is not a very likely thing to happen), I think that in such a case the authority on the two sides is to be looked upon as equal. (St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 8:12)

They arrived at it based on the spiritual nature of it's content, it's proximity to an Apostolic figure, and it's universal acceptance.

The Letter to the Hebrews, the Revelation of John, or 2 and 3 John had "universal acceptance" among orthodox Christians? Do tell.

PS: What else is "universal acceptance" but an appeal to the authority of the Church? I'm surprised you don't see this.

16 posted on 11/12/2005 11:33:04 AM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: wmfights; NYer
Here we go again more "Born Again" bashing.

Not at all! Have you seen actual hate towards Born-Again-ers on these threads? If so, then the offender should be corrected. All these threads do is demonstrate Catholics practicing one of the the spiritual works of mercy - instruct the ignorant.

17 posted on 11/12/2005 11:51:48 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: NYer

You've provoked a very interesting discussion. I think, however, the Protestant vs. Roman Catholic way of dealing with scripture as you've characterized it, while it contains much that is true, also omits much that makes the two traditions more similar than opposed -- in some ways that would surprise most ordinary catholics and non-catholics. If you'd like to discuss this by private post, please advise. P.S. Bible comes from the Greek "biblios" (forgive the perhaps sloppy transliteration) meaning "book".


18 posted on 11/12/2005 12:23:32 PM PST by T.L.Sink (stopew)
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To: xzins
Wow, what a great and sensical scenario you've set up. The fact is Paul *is* dead, which is why you have an authoritative body which succeeded him in order to safeguard the teachings of him, Christ, Peter and the other fathers of the Church.

If Paul was alive, of course we would listen to him, but not in opposition to the Church, but because he is part of the Church.
19 posted on 11/12/2005 12:52:33 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Forest Keeper
What beautiful logic! Here is the summary: Douglas Wilson-bad, all protestants-stupid, Mormonism-burning bosom. Based on this, it can categorically be said that the Catholic Bible is correct because the Church is infallible. I totally get it now.

As opposed to the Protestant circular argument of "We know the Scriptures are the real Scriptures because they're the Scriptures because it says it's the Scriptures on the cover"?
20 posted on 11/12/2005 12:55:07 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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