Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
“Have you been born again?” the Fundamentalist at the door asks the unsuspecting Catholic. The question is usually a segue into a vast doctrinal campaign that leads many ill-instructed Catholics out of the Catholic Church. How? By making them think there is a conflict between the Bible and the Catholic Church over being “born again.”
To be honest, most Catholics probably do not understand the expression “born again.” Yes, they believe in Jesus. And yes, they try to live Christian lives. They probably have some vague awareness that Fundamentalists think being “born again” involves a religious experience or “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.” Many cradle Catholics, too, have had their moments of closeness to God, even of joy over God's love and mercy. They may even have had “conversion experiences” of sorts, committing themselves to take their faith seriously and to live more faithfully as disciples of Jesus. But the cradle Catholic probably cannot pinpoint any particular moment in his life when he dropped to his knees and “accepted Jesus” for the first time. As far back as he can recall, he has believed, trusted and loved Jesus as Savior and Lord. Does that prove he has never been “born again”?
Not “the Bible way,” says the Fundamentalist. But the Fundamentalist is wrong there. He misunderstands what the Bible says about being “born again.” Unfortunately, few Catholics understand the biblical use of the term, either. As a result, pastors, deacons, catechists, parents and others responsible for religious education have their work cut out for them. It would be helpful, then, to review the biblical — and Catholic — meaning of the term “born again.”
"BORN AGAIN" THE BIBLE WAY
The only biblical use of the term “born again” occurs in John 3:3-5 — although, as we shall see, similar and related expressions such as “new birth” and ,regeneration” occur elsewhere in Scripture (Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, 23). In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” The Greek expression translated “born again” (gennathei anothen) also means “born from above.” Jesus, it seems, makes a play on words with Nicodemus, contrasting earthly life, or what theologians would later dub natural life (“what is born of flesh”), with the new life of heaven, or what they would later call supernatural life (“what is born of Spirit”).
Nicodemus' reply: “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” (John 3:4). Does he simply mistake Jesus to be speaking literally or is Nicodemus himself answering figuratively, meaning, “How can an old man learn new ways as if he were a child again?” We cannot say for sure, but in any case Jesus answers, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.”' (John 3:5-7).
Here Jesus equates “born again” or “born from above” with “born of water and the Spirit.” If, as the Catholic Church has always held, being “born of water and the Spirit” refers to baptism, then it follows that being “born again” or “born from above” means being baptized.
Clearly, the context implies that born of “water and the Spirit” refers to baptism. The Evangelist tells us that immediately after talking with Nicodemus, Jesus took his disciples into the wilderness where they baptized people (John 3:22). Furthermore, water is closely linked to the Spirit throughout John's Gospel (for instance, in Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:9-13) and in the Johannine tradition (cf. 1 John 5:7). It seems reasonable, then, to conclude that John the Evangelist understands Jesus' words about being “born again” and “born of water and the Spirit” to have a sacramental, baptismal meaning.
OTHER VIEWS OF "BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT"
Fundamentalists who reject baptismal regeneration usually deny that “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to baptism. Some argue that “water” refers to the “water of childbirth.” On this view, Jesus means that unless one is born of water (at his physical birth) and again of the Spirit (in a spiritual birth), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
A major problem with this argument, however, is that while Jesus does contrast physical and spiritual life, he clearly uses the term “flesh” for the former, in contrast to “Spirit” for the latter. Jesus might say, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of flesh and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” — though it would be obvious and absurdly redundant to say that one must be born (i.e., born of flesh) in order to be born again (i.e., born of the Spirit). But using “born of water and the Spirit” to mean “born of the flesh and then of the Spirit” would only confuse things by introducing the term “water” from out of nowhere, without any obvious link to the term “flesh.” Moreover, while the flesh is clearly opposed to the Spirit and the Spirit clearly opposed to the flesh in this passage, the expression “born of water and the Spirit” implies no such opposition. It is not “water” vs. “the Spirit,” but “water and the Spirit.”
Furthermore, the Greek of the text suggests that “born of water and the Spirit” (literally “born of water and spirit”) refers to a single, supernatural birth over against natural birth (“born of the flesh”). The phrase “of water and the Spirit” (Greek, ek hudatos kai pneumatos) is a single linguistical unit. It refers to being “born of water and the Spirit,” not “born of water” on the one hand and “born of the Spirit” on the other.
Another argument used by opponents of baptismal regeneration: “born of water and the Spirit” refers, correspondingly, to the baptism of John (being “born of water”) and the baptism of the Spirit (being “born of ... the Spirit”), which John promised the coming Messiah would effect. Thus, on this view, Jesus says, “Unless a man is born of water through John's baptism and of the Spirit through my baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”
We have already seen that, according to the Greek, “born of water and the Spirit” refers to a single thing, a single spiritual birth. Thus, the first half of the phrase cannot apply to one thing (John's baptism) and the second half to something else entirely (Jesus' baptism). But even apart from the linguistical argument, if “born of water” refers to John's baptism, then Jesus is saying that in order to be “born again” or “born from above” one must receive John's baptism of water (“born of water ...”) and the Messiah's baptism of the Spirit (“. . . and Spirit”). That would mean only those who have been baptized by John could enter the kingdom of God—which would drastically reduce the population of heaven. In fact, no one holds that people must receive John's baptism in order to enter the Kingdom — something now impossible. Therefore being “born of water . . .” cannot refer to John's baptism.
The most reasonable explanation for “born of water and the Spirit,” then, is that it refers to baptism. This is reinforced by many New Testament texts linking baptism, the Holy Spirit and regeneration. At Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descends upon him as He comes up out of the water (cf. John 1:25-34; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22). Furthermore, what distinguishes John's baptism of repentance in anticipation of the Messiah from Christian baptism, is that the latter is a baptism with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:31; Acts 1:4-5).
Consequently, on Pentecost, Peter calls the Jews to “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins” and promises that they will “receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38), thus fulfilling the promise of John. Peter clearly teaches here that the “water baptism,” to which he directs the soon-to-be converts, forgives sins and bestows the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism, then, is no mere external, repentance-ritual with water, but entails an inner transformation or regeneration by the Holy Spirit of the New Covenant; it is a “new birth,” a being “born again” or “born from above.”
In Romans 6:3, Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (RNAB). Baptism, says Paul, effects union with the death and resurrection of Christ, so that through it we die and rise to new life, a form of “regeneration.”
According to Titus 3:5, God “saved us through the washing of regeneration (paliggenesias) and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that the text refers only to the “washing (loutrou) of regeneration” rather than the “baptism of regeneration.” But baptism is certainly a form of washing and elsewhere in the New Testament it is described as a “washing away of sin.” For example, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling upon his name.” The Greek word used for the “washing away of sins” in baptism here is apolousai, essentially the same term used in Titus 3:5. Furthermore, since “washing” and “regeneration” are not ordinarily related terms, a specific kind of washing — one that regenerates — must be in view. The most obvious kind of washing which the reader would understand would be baptism, a point even many Baptist scholars, such as G.R. Beasley-Murray, admit. (See his book Baptism in the New Testament.)
In 1 Peter 1:3, it is stated that God has given Christians “a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The term “new birth” (Gk, anagennasas, “having regenerated”) appears synonymous with “born again” or “regeneration.” According to 1 Peter 1:23, Christians “have been born anew (Gk, anagegennamenoi, “having been regenerated”) not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God.” From the word of the Gospel, in other words.
Opponents of baptismal regeneration argue that since the “new birth” mentioned in 1 Peter 1:3 and 23 is said to come about through the Word of God, being “born again” means accepting the Gospel message, not being baptized. This argument overlooks the fact that elsewhere in the New Testament accepting the gospel message and being baptized are seen as two parts of the one act of commitment to Christ.
In Mark 16:16, for instance, Jesus says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Believing”, i.e., accepting the Gospel, entails accepting baptism, which is the means by which one “puts on Christ” (Gal. 3:27) and is buried and raised with him to new life (Rom 6:3-5; Gal 2:12). Acts 2:41 says of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, “Those who accepted his message were baptized . . .” It seems reasonable to conclude that those whom 1 Peter 1:23 describes as “having been born anew” or regenerated through the “living and abiding word of God” were also those who had been baptized. Thus, being “born of water and the Spirit” and being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God” describe different aspects of one thing — being regenerated in Christ. Being “born again” (or “from above”) in “water and the Spirit” refers to the external act of receiving baptism, while being “born anew” refers to the internal reception in faith of the Gospel (being “born anew” through “the living and abiding word of God”).
Moreover, baptism involves a proclamation of the Word, which is part of what constitutes it (i.e., “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”). To accept baptism is to accept the Word of God. There is no need, then, to see the operation of the Word of God in regeneration as something opposed to or separated from baptism.
Some Fundamentalists also object that being “born again” through baptismal regeneration contradicts the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith. Implicit here is the idea that Christian baptism is a mere “human work” done to earn favor before God. In fact, Christian baptism is something that is done to one (one is baptized — passive), not something one does for oneself. The one who baptizes, according to the Bible, is Jesus Himself by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 1:33). It makes no more sense to oppose baptism and faith in Christ to one another as means of regeneration than it does to oppose faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to one another. There is no either/or here; it is both/and.
THE CATHOLIC VIEW OF BEING "BORN AGAIN"
Following the New Testament use of the term, the Catholic Church links regeneration or being “born again” in the life of the Spirit to the sacrament of baptism (CCC, nos. 1215,1265-1266). Baptism is not a mere human “work” one does to “earn” regeneration and divine sonship; it is the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, which, by grace, washes away sin and makes us children of God. It is central to the Catholic understanding of justification by grace. For justification is, as the Council of Trent taught, “a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ” (Session 6, chapter 4). Baptism is an instrumental means by which God graciously justifies — that is, regenerates — sinners through faith in Jesus Christ and makes them children of God.
Catholic teaching is not opposed to a “religious experience” of conversion accompanying baptism (of adults) — far from it. But such an “experience” is not required. What is required for baptism to be fruitful (for an adult) is repentance from sin and faith in Christ, of which baptism is the sacrament (CCC, no. 1253). These are grace-enabled acts of the will that are not necessarily accompanied by feelings of being “born again.” Regeneration rests on the divinely established fact of incorporation and regeneration in Christ, not on feelings one way or the other.
This point can be driven home to Evangelicals by drawing on a point they often emphasize in a related context. Evangelicals often say that the act of having accepted Christ as “personal Savior and Lord” is the important thing, not whether feelings accompany that act. It is, they say, faith that matters, not feelings. Believe by faith that Christ is the Savior and the appropriate feelings, they say, will eventually follow. But even if they do not, what counts is the fact of having taken Christ as Savior.
Catholics can say something similar regarding baptism. The man who is baptized may not “feel” any different after baptism than before. But once he is baptized, he has received the Holy Spirit in a special way. He has been regenerated and made a child of God through the divine sonship of Jesus Christ in which he shares. He has been buried with Christ and raised to new life with Him. He has objectively and publicly identified himself with Jesus' death and resurrection. If the newly baptized man meditates on these things, he may or may not “feel” them, in the sense of some subjective religious experience. Nevertheless, he will believe them to be true by faith. And he will have the benefits of baptism into Christ nonetheless.
A "BORN AGAIN" CHRISTIAN?
When Fundamentalists call themselves “born again Christians,” they want to stress an experience of having entered into a genuine spiritual relationship with Christ as Savior and Lord, in contradistinction to unbelief or a mere nominal Christianity. As we have seen, though, the term “born again” and its parallel terms “new birth” and “regeneration” are used by Jesus and the New Testament writers to refer to the forgiveness of sins and inner renewal of the Holy Spirit signified and brought about by Christ through baptism.
How, then, should a Catholic answer the question, “Have you been born again?” An accurate answer would be, “Yes, I was born again in baptism.” Yet leaving it at that may generate even more confusion. Most Fundamentalists would probably understand the Catholic to mean, “I'm going to heaven simply because I'm baptized.” In other words, the Fundamentalist would think the Catholic is “trusting in his baptism” rather than Christ, whereas the informed Catholic knows it means trusting in Christ with whom he is united in baptism.
The Catholic, then, should do more than simply point to his baptism; he should discuss his living faith, trust and love of Christ; his desire to grow in sanctity and conformity to Christ; and his total dependence on Christ for salvation. These are integral to the new life of the Holy Spirit that baptism bestows. When the Fundamentalist sees the link between baptism and the Holy Spirit in the life of his Catholic neighbor, he may begin to see that St. Paul was more than figurative when he wrote, “You were buried with Christ in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).
Sad indeed. There are many denominations that are dying for this very reason...that they do not have the Spirit. I can only speak for myself, but Communion/The Eucharist is exactly what the Lord said it is. His Flesh and His Blood.
That's what I believe, too, but it's far from universal.
Defy to find a Protestant Church that doesn't require it? What about the PRotestant denominations that support abortion? That's certainly not living as God requires.
These are 'Protestant' ... or even 'Christian' ... in name only.
You would say the same of the 'in name only' Catholics which support abortion.
There will be tares among the wheat until the day of the Lord.Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Yes they do. I was raised in a church before I converted to Catholicism that believed it was nothing but a memorial of the last supper, one we were enjoined to do, but not where Jesus is present in that special way that is the Catholic Eucharist.
A memorial. Where we felt linked, perhaps to a long history of Christians who did remember Jesus in the Lord's Supper as we thought of it. A resaying of the words. A return in mind, perhaps, to the crucifixion. But not a coming down of the real presence.
Most Protestant churches observe the Lord's Supper ... exactly as Jesus, Himself, observed it ...Luke 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
When have I EVER given you THAT idea? Really. Why must I constantly reminding you that Catholics believe that we can do nothing ALONE? Our Councils are clear on this, as have I. Never have I once said that I am saved by my OWN actions. Over and over I have mentioned that I cooperate in Christ - that I am a new creation in Christ and that anything that I do is WITH Christ - who enables me to do anything. Why must I continuously hear this from you? I am sadly disappointed that you cannot let your prejudices go and get rid of that misperception that Catholics teach we are saved by our OWN works...
He who made you without your own self will NOT justify you WITHOUT yourself (Augustine, Sermon 169)
The term "foolish" is a term almost always ascribed to unbelievers in scripture. Our Lord Jesus is merely saying the "foolish" virgins never were prepared to begin with (e.g. never accepted Him).
I heartily disagree! You are reading your theology into the parable. The requisites for being a bridesmaid is to be a virgin. They thus had all met these initial requirements. ANY of them were potentially part of the wedding party, just as we are as Christians. This the parable makes clear. The catch phrase of the parable is Mat 25:13... "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
This is a common idea in Scriptures. Now. Why are we told to watch, over and over again, in Scriptures??? It refers to not being ready to be held accountable for our actions. Scripture makes it clear that we will be held accountable for what we do in this life. We are being warned that - given the gift of faith that we have received, to practice it. (all understood, of course, that we ALONE do not do it, but God in us allowing us to do it).
Of course, the immediately proceeding verses leading up to the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins should also give you a clue...
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming. And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mat 24:44-51
The Wise and Foolish Virgins is merely another means of telling the same concept with different metaphors. The OIL, ones "deeds" must be present - along with "her" virginity, her initial requirement - a child of God. BE READY means to be ready to give an accounting of yourself, as we never know when God will call us to participate in the Wedding Feast in heaven. Even though a "virgin", A CHRISTIAN, Christ can tell us "I never knew you", just as Matthew says in Matthew 7:21-24
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Paul clearly also warns his communities to be awake...
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof]. Rom 13:10-14)
Thus, be prepared, for we don't know when we will be held accountable for the talents that we have been given (another parable that is told in the same portion of Matthew's Gospel - they all say the same thing...)
The simple fact is, as the Westminster Confession states, I don't trust myself to maintain my spirituality. I trust God will help and see me through. God will not "lead me into temptation" and He will "deliver me from evil".
The simple fact of the matter is that you are ASSUMING that you are one of the ELECT! You yourself have over and over told me about God's sovereign will and God has preordained this or that. But from the sounds of it, you have preordained YOURSELF to the elect! It is clear that the Scriptures note that we, part of the Promised People of God, can and DO fall away...
"...all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:1b-12.
Paul, in the same letter, tells CHRISTIANS that they will NOT inherit the KINGDOM of heaven if they ... and he gives a list of sins that keep us out of heaven (1 Cor 6:9-10). He does this again in Galatians 5. And Paul repeats this line of thought in Hebrews 3 and 4. He continues this throughout Hebrews with such interesting verses as:
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" Heb 10:26-27
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:38
Brother, the idea that we are guaranteed salvation is refuted over and over by Scripture. We are told over and over that we will be held accountable for what we do, in nearly EVERY book of the NT, with the exception of perhaps Philemon. It is a dominant theme in Christ's ministry. We are told to be awake, as the time of our accountablility is unknown to us. Tell me. Why WORRY about this if we are already guaranteed salvation? Why are we warned over and over? BECAUSE WE CAN THROW AWAY the GIFT of God's salvation while still here on earth. That is the bottom line. We CANNOT EARN salvation, but WE can THROW IT AWAY. And it is IMPOSSIBLE for US to know that we will NOT!
2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
ENTRUSTED. I have not yet ENTRUSTED to God my future deeds and faith and repentence, so that is not ENTRUSTED (past tense). My FUTURE deeds and such are not guarded. If I commit fornication in 4 years, is that entrusted to God? Nowhere does this verse even remotely suggest that our future is entrusted.
Regards
Yes but there's a difference.
Individuals holding heretical beleifs within the church are INDIVIDUALS they are nt preaching a false doctrine.
Protestant churches with heretical DOCTRINES are out there evangelizing false doctrines to the masses.
The truth is within the Catholic, and Orthodox church, for individuals to find, whether they find it is still up to them. (Freewill yet again).
Yet members of these protestant churches would have to hold TRUTHFUL convictions (abortion is a sin) which would be heretical to their own church's false doctrine, in order to find the truth.
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Jefferson was a genius. Btw, great post.
Can you be sure? That is the most vital question. Many Protestants and Catholics alike when asked are you going to heaven say, "I hope so". Next, when asked how does one get there, they say by doing good, going to church, living right.
First of all, I want to know for sure I am going to heaven.
Second, if we trust in our good works, it will send us straight to Hell when we die. Why? because God does not have a scale. If you only sinned once, you are out of heaven if you are trusting in your good works. That's why Christ had to die. He paid the debt that I owed. It's only by accepting what He did on cross and that alone as a free gift gets one into Heaven. It is grace and not works so we cannot boast. We are indebted to God. He is not indebted to us.
Hmmmmm…..I think our disagreement stems from what precisely happens to us as new creatures. If I’m not mistaken, you see the Holy Spirit indwelling you in baptism as filling you. He energizing you and with His help you do “good works” and walk in "God's path". Any time after baptism you can ignore the Holy Spirit which diminishes your faith. Ignore the Holy Spirit long enough and you could lose your salvation. Have I stated this correctly?
Wouldn't that mean you were unborn? One can lose rewards but one cannot lose his salvation. It talks about being saved yet so as by fire. For born-again believers there will be a rewards ceremony in heaven. Some will get nothing. Others will get crowns, gold, silver, precious stones which we will lay at the feet of Jesus.
We are told not to grieve the Holy Spirit whom we are sealed till the day of redemption. At worst, one sees the Corinthian church of those who took communion lightly as being asleep which means God took them to heaven because of their sin. God's chastening may end up in the death of His adopted children and the loss of rewards but our relationship is secure.
Baptism is demonstrating to others your desire to die to old life and be raised to walk a new life. It is identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Born-again believers are the body of Christ of which He is the Head. Eph. 2:22-23 Communion is sacred but bread and wine are only symbols of Christ.
The bread and wine are NOT only SYMBOLIC.
If they are not just symbolic, then how you deal with that I am part of the body of Christ?
The Living Tradition of the Eucharist.
It is interesting to emphasize another form of the Synodical system, which accentuates the importance of Tradition: the Eucharist itself. In the Eucharist, all Orthodox Christians meet together and in absolute agreement, in doctrine and practice witness the presence of the Holy Trinity on the altar of the Church. The bishop and the priest pray to God the Father to send the Holy Spirit and transform the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ. All the faithful present are called to receive Communion and become active members of the Body of Christ. In the liturgy, as it was instituted by the Lord Himself, the whole Church meets every day to proclaim and live the oneness and the unity of faith in Jesus Christ. In the Orthodox liturgy, we see all the history of Tradition embodied in the body and blood of Christ.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7116.asp
Pretty much, with two minor changes...
First, it takes more than "ignoring" the Spirit. It must be a WILLFUL turning from God. We call this "mortal" sin, the sin that brings spiritual death (1 John). To be in this situation (possible hell), one must have committed a serious sin, knew it was serious, and DID it, anyway.
Second, the word "helps" (refering to the Spirit helping me do good works) can give improper connotations. It is more like the Spirit is THE operating principle within me, not a 90-10 proposition. "Take over" I say to the Spirit! For example:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:16-17
(you) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:12b-13
Of course, some people WON'T let the Spirit "take over", even Christians.
We believe that since God gave us free will to reject Him and we are warned to persevere over and over, we believe that this leads us to understand that ...
1. Rejection of God leads us to sin - enough of which disinherits even a son.
2. The mention of spiritual warfare calls us to battle against our flesh - which implies I can lose IN THE END! I don't know if I will succeed THEN, but I know that when I turn to the Lord NOW, I CAN succeed. (I can be assured based on my current walk, but this is hopeful confidence, not absolute presumption - especially if you consider the unknown future)
3. The call to persevere, with teachings of those who have fallen, is an exhortation to all Christians. There is the EXPLICIT warning that some will FAIL. Reconsider reading Revelations 2 and 3 and tell me that salvation is absolutely guaranteed!
4. We can do this only by heeding the Graces that we, as Christians, receive. "Do not allow grace to be given to us in vain", Paul tells the Corinthians.
5. The call to repent, to believe, to hope, to love - all suggest that we can REFUSE. Obviously, we can do none of the above without God - this implies that we CAN refuse God, since these exhortations are all given to Christians, those marked by the Spirit.
6. By heeding the guidelines given to us through the Church (the Body), we grow in virtue (faith, hope and love) and become more like Christ. By becoming like Christ, we are assured salvation.
As a new creation, do you believe that we are ALL assured of salvation? Are all who are baptized also the Elect and are irrevocably headed to heaven? Or are some who are baptized NOT necessarily of the Elect? Would you agree with several of Jesus' parables to the effect that some "within" the Church are not "of" the Church (weeds and tares; fish and the net)?
Regards
2) Those who have rewards will lay those at Christ’s feet simply because they recognize that all good fruit belongs to Him.
3) A believer can grieve (sin of commission-Eph 4:30) and quench (sin of omission-1 Thes 5:19) but didn’t Christ die for ALL our sins? Didn’t He know that we would have committed these sins before justifying us? Chirst died for all of our sins. And as you rightfully stated we could commit an sin so grievous that God decides to call us home. We are God’s ambassadors and represent a King. God expects us to act like it.
4) I believe baptism to be a little stronger sacrament than just an identification (although it is that). Baptism is a work that our Lord Jesus instituted and I believe it is for our benefit as a work of God; like God commanding Naaman to go wash in the Jordan. Baptism doesn’t save you but your obedience to His command shows the inward change in your life.
5) Like 1 John 5:1 states, whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. I will add there is much encompassed in “believes” but that sums it up nicely.
6) Communion, we are told in scripture, is a proclamation of our Lord Jesus’ return (1 Cor 11:23). Nothing more.
BELIEVING something doesn't make it true. The Scriptures are FULL of verses that refute the idea of the knowledge of eternal salvation of an individual in the future. Read 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 - this is written to CHRISTIANS as a warning to beware "those who think they are secure"...
Second, if we trust in our good works, it will send us straight to Hell
Many Catholics who "say" that are not being very distinct. We do not believe that our OWN works can get us to heaven. Only works that God ENABLES within us, as without Christ, I can do nothing (good). Thus, when in Christ, I CAN love, I CAN have faith. If we are judged on what we have done, this is in reference to cooperating with Christ, since we can do nothing ALONE.
That's why Christ had to die.
Christ chose to die out of love and obedience to the Father, not out of some "requirement". If Christ payed the ENTIRE debt that mankind owed, than that means that NO ONE is in hell right now. The wages of sin is death, correct? Eternal death. Do you think hell is empty?
It's only by accepting what He did on cross and that alone as a free gift gets one into Heaven. It is grace and not works so we cannot boast.
The Scripture points out specifically that faith ALONE does not save. And recall that faith is just as much a gift as "works" - Eph 2:8-10. God enables us to have faith. We don't bring it up from inside of us. Thus, we cannot boast of our FAITH, either!
We are indebted to God. He is not indebted to us.
AH. You said something I completely agree with. And Catholics are taught to believe that completely. Part of the confusion is what is a "work". A work is something we do for pay, for wages. THIS is what Paul condemns in Romans 3-4. Not love. Not repentence. Not things we do IN Christ. Unfortunately, some Protestant commentators have equated "works" from Paul to mean ANYTHING a man does. Paul is condemning the attitude that God is obligated to repay wages for one who "works". But Paul tells us that our love (good deeds) IS essential for salvation: "...and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing. " 1 Cor 13:2
Faith WITHOUT love is DEAD. It CANNOT save. Consider also reading the entire book of 1 John. Without love, we will NOT come into union with God in heaven. And even this is not our OWN, but God moving in us the will to do so.
Regards
Ok let all become Catholics but there are some problems maybe you can address.
Our Fathers and Hail Marys- vain repetitions?
Queen of Heaven--name of an goddess in Jeremiah?
Mary-a mediatior--one mediator but God and man Christ Jesus?
Mary and Pope-sinless--all have sinned, Mary said God my Savior?
And what serious sin would this be that hasn’t been done before? I’d think you would find at least one person that God loved doing just about every sin there ever was. King David murder a person, knew the seriousness of his crime, and yet did it anyway. The problem is we don’t understand the depths of our depravity, the evilness of our own hearts and the great love and forgiveness of God. Besides, when you accepted Christ didn't He forgive ALL your sins?
Second, the word "helps" (refering to the Spirit helping me do good works) can give improper connotations. It is more like the Spirit is THE operating principle within me, not a 90-10 proposition. "Take over" I say to the Spirit!
This is the other place where I would disagree. God leads. Jesus leads. The Holy Spirit leads. We don’t say “take over” to God. God is running the show. While we are being led we may say we are not going to do something (like Jonah) or we may wish to not listen and run ahead like the Israelites at Ai, but God will bring us back to the right track.
The fact that you see the Spirit as only a “life indwelling” being reduces the Holy Spirit to nothing more than a conscience. Ezekiel states that God would give us a new heart and a new spirit that WOULD CAUSE us to walk in His statues and be obedient. I don’t see how this fits with your definition.
1. I'm Orthodox not Catholic.
2. The Orthodox rarely if ever have penance and while we venerate Mary Hail Mary's and the rosary are not the Orthodox tradition.
3. Mary, like the saints, can pray for us, these prayers are mentioned in Revelations and important in the final judgement.
4. I don't know of any place in scripture that shows Mary being sinful, as for the pope the Orthodox church doesn't even recognize the primacy of the pope let alone the notion he's without sin.
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