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To: HarleyD
Hmmmmm…..I think our disagreement stems from what precisely happens to us as new creatures. If I’m not mistaken, you see the Holy Spirit indwelling you in baptism as filling you. He energizing you and with His help you do “good works” and walk in "God's path". Any time after baptism you can ignore the Holy Spirit which diminishes your faith. Ignore the Holy Spirit long enough and you could lose your salvation. Have I stated this correctly?

Pretty much, with two minor changes...

First, it takes more than "ignoring" the Spirit. It must be a WILLFUL turning from God. We call this "mortal" sin, the sin that brings spiritual death (1 John). To be in this situation (possible hell), one must have committed a serious sin, knew it was serious, and DID it, anyway.

Second, the word "helps" (refering to the Spirit helping me do good works) can give improper connotations. It is more like the Spirit is THE operating principle within me, not a 90-10 proposition. "Take over" I say to the Spirit! For example:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:16-17

(you) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:12b-13

Of course, some people WON'T let the Spirit "take over", even Christians.

We believe that since God gave us free will to reject Him and we are warned to persevere over and over, we believe that this leads us to understand that ...

1. Rejection of God leads us to sin - enough of which disinherits even a son.

2. The mention of spiritual warfare calls us to battle against our flesh - which implies I can lose IN THE END! I don't know if I will succeed THEN, but I know that when I turn to the Lord NOW, I CAN succeed. (I can be assured based on my current walk, but this is hopeful confidence, not absolute presumption - especially if you consider the unknown future)

3. The call to persevere, with teachings of those who have fallen, is an exhortation to all Christians. There is the EXPLICIT warning that some will FAIL. Reconsider reading Revelations 2 and 3 and tell me that salvation is absolutely guaranteed!

4. We can do this only by heeding the Graces that we, as Christians, receive. "Do not allow grace to be given to us in vain", Paul tells the Corinthians.

5. The call to repent, to believe, to hope, to love - all suggest that we can REFUSE. Obviously, we can do none of the above without God - this implies that we CAN refuse God, since these exhortations are all given to Christians, those marked by the Spirit.

6. By heeding the guidelines given to us through the Church (the Body), we grow in virtue (faith, hope and love) and become more like Christ. By becoming like Christ, we are assured salvation.

As a new creation, do you believe that we are ALL assured of salvation? Are all who are baptized also the Elect and are irrevocably headed to heaven? Or are some who are baptized NOT necessarily of the Elect? Would you agree with several of Jesus' parables to the effect that some "within" the Church are not "of" the Church (weeds and tares; fish and the net)?

Regards

514 posted on 11/15/2005 10:52:20 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
”First, it takes more than "ignoring" the Spirit. It must be a WILLFUL turning from God. We call this "mortal" sin, the sin that brings spiritual death (1 John). To be in this situation (possible hell), one must have committed a serious sin, knew it was serious, and DID it, anyway. “

And what serious sin would this be that hasn’t been done before? I’d think you would find at least one person that God loved doing just about every sin there ever was. King David murder a person, knew the seriousness of his crime, and yet did it anyway. The problem is we don’t understand the depths of our depravity, the evilness of our own hearts and the great love and forgiveness of God. Besides, when you accepted Christ didn't He forgive ALL your sins?

Second, the word "helps" (refering to the Spirit helping me do good works) can give improper connotations. It is more like the Spirit is THE operating principle within me, not a 90-10 proposition. "Take over" I say to the Spirit!

This is the other place where I would disagree. God leads. Jesus leads. The Holy Spirit leads. We don’t say “take over” to God. God is running the show. While we are being led we may say we are not going to do something (like Jonah) or we may wish to not listen and run ahead like the Israelites at Ai, but God will bring us back to the right track.

The fact that you see the Spirit as only a “life indwelling” being reduces the Holy Spirit to nothing more than a conscience. Ezekiel states that God would give us a new heart and a new spirit that WOULD CAUSE us to walk in His statues and be obedient. I don’t see how this fits with your definition.

518 posted on 11/15/2005 11:28:15 AM PST by HarleyD ("For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10 - Did He do it?)
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