Posted on 10/27/2005 11:50:06 AM PDT by emiller
Wednesday, October 26, 2005 (Pune):
A gathering of leading Catholic clergymen from all over India have asked the Vatican to endorse their proposal to include Hindu rituals in the church.
The Pune Papal seminary said priests from all over India were unanimous that the Catholic clergy must incorporate Hindu practices like performing aarti during mass, studying Sanskrit and the Vedas, and experiencing ashram life.
The Catholic Church's Indianisation process began in the mid 1960s, when a revolutionary council introduced local traditions and practices like mass in regional languages.
Four decades later, the Catholic Church feels there is a need to give that process a fresh emphasis.
"The Catholic Church plans to adopt a number of Indian traditions and practices, which will give us a feel of being an Indian," said Father Ornellas Coutinho, Rector, Pune Papal Seminary.
Countering arguments
After producing four cardinals, 69 bishops and over 11,000 priests during the past 50 years, the Catholic Church in India is now stressing for lesser control from the Vatican to make it truly Indian and genuinely Christian.
The priests say one of the reasons for making these changes official is to neutrailise the arguments of the Hindu right-wingers, who often charge the church with forcible conversions and negating Indian traditions.
"It would definitely put a check on the so-called fundamentalists who keep blaming us for conversions," said Father Lionell Mascarenhas, a priest.
The final word now rests with the Vatican, and if the initiative gets the nod, it may well redefine the practices of the Church in India.
That's entirely different than incorporating pagan ceremonies into the Mass.
I hear ya and agree!
And as we in the USA know, you can always trust the head of a seminary!
A couple of years ago I attended a Mass with a priest from India on a mission raising funds for the seminary students in his diocese. He didn't make any pseudo-Hindu gestures, just a standard Mass. He was pretty intense, though. Not a bad homilist either.
I really doubt that this is going to happen. I know two priest from Goa, India, and they would have none of this nonsense.
Frenetic,
You're full of it. No practices from Mithraism were adopted by Christians. Perhaps you've never read the modern classic about Mithraism? Read Manfred Clauss' The Roman Cult of Mithras : The God and His Mysteries. It's pricey at $32, but well worth it. In it you will discover:
"Energetically suppressed by the early Christians, who frequently constructed their churches over the caves in which Mithraic rituals took place, the cult was extinct by the end of the fourth century."
Christians, such as a late antique Syraic commentator who wrote about the followers of pagans, wrote EXPLICITLY that Christians celebrated Christ's birthday on December 25 IN OPPOSITION TO MITHRAISM. See page 66 for starters.
The Apostle St. Thomas (AKA doubting Thomas) is credited with introducing Christianity to India. Many of the Orthodox churches in India are known as St. Thomas Apostle Indian Orthodox Churches. The funny thing is that, even as professed Christians, these people still separate themselves into castes. There are separate churches for the higher class and those considered lower class. I guess old habits die hard.
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/a1_en.htm
"HINDUS AND CHRISTIANS IN SOLIDARITY" is the theme of this year's message to Hindus for Diwali, the Hindu feast which celebrates the victory of light over darkness, of good over evil. In the message, which is sent annually, Archbishop Michael L. Fitzgerald, president of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue recalls the solidarity of so many people, "across religious boundaries" in places affected by the tidal wave that hit countries around the India Ocean in December last year. "At a time when aggressive secularism would seem to be on the increase and respect for basic human values often appears to be on the decline, such cooperation among people of different religions can bring about a new respect for religion in today's world."
.../IN BRIEF/... VIS 051025 (270)
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_21_xi-ordinaria-2005/01_italiano/b31_01.html
Proposizione 26
Inculturazione e Celebrazione
Per una più efficace partecipazione dei fedeli alla Eucarestia, questo Sinodo auspica la promozione di una maggiore inculturazione nell’ambito della celebrazione eucaristica, tenendo conto delle possibilità di adattamento offerte dalla Institutio generalis del Messale romano, dai criteri fissati dalla IV Istruzione della Congregazione per il culto divino per una giusta applicazione delle costituzione conciliare sulla liturgia del 1994, e dalle direttive espresse nelle Esortazioni postsinodali Ecclesia in Africa , Ecclesia in Asia, Ecclesia in Oceania, Ecclesia in America. A questo scopo le Conferenze episcopali assumano piena responsabilità nell’incrementare i tentativi di inculturazione favorendo il giusto equilibrio tra criteri e direttiva già emanate e nuovi adattamenti.
Oh, and having the feel of being a Catholic is asking too much?
Gag me.
That was somewhat before Bede Griffith's day.
I recently read Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton....his autobiography written in '48 at the age of 29, in which he tells of his conversion to Catholicism. A Hindu holy man he met in college impressed him with his purity of spirit. The Hindu believed that only the Catholics in the US know how to pray...
Jesus in a turban sounds fine to me....or a sombrero or keffiyah.
This is fine, but whatever you do, don't go to any mass that actually keeps CATHOLIC traditions and practices.
Ecumenism Gone Awry: Hypocrisy at its Finest, by Brian Mershon
And an Ashram is simply a Hindu monastery, sometimes with a school. Again, as long as the content is Catholic, I can't see much of a problem with the building.
"You're full of it. No practices from Mithraism were adopted by Christians."
- You are wrong. There are several. The fololowing excerpt sums it up pretty well. http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/mith.htm
Granted, this site is by no means the authority on the subject but pulls together the facts nicely.
"Mithra was called "the Light of the World." They believed in a heaven and hell and the dualism of good and evil, a final day of judgment, the end of the world as we know it and a general resurrection. Long before Jesus, Dec. 25th was celebrated as the date of Mithra's birth. Mithra was also associated with the sun, and his followers marked Sunday as his day of worship, they called it the Lord's Day. A few of the extra-biblical traditions seem to have found its way to Christianity through Roman Mithraism.
Among the milder ceremonies of the followers of Mithra were baptism in holy water and a partaking of a sacred meal of bread and wine. After passing several ordeals the converts were "reborn" as a new man in Mithra. Though Mithra had ascended into heaven he had promised to return and bring life everlasting to his loyal followers."
I've studied many religions. Some notable Dec. 25th birthdays of ancient gods who's certain stories and concepts bear striking resemblance to the Christ story are Attis, Dionysus, Osiris & Mithra, all prevalent at the time of Christ, some by orders of thousands of years prior. Zoroaster's story (not related to Dec. 25) bears some resemblance to Christ as well.
Apparently it can get a little more complicated than just a prayer.
The pujari performing arati first purifies his hands with sacred water from the acamana cup. He then sprinkles three spoonfuls of water over a conch, and blows it three times. He then lights an odd number of incense sticks (usually three) from a ghee lamp standing beside the altar. While ringing a small bell, he waves it seven times around the deities, and then he waves it once to the assembled devotees.
The pujari next lights a five-wick ghee lamp from the large lamp and offers it; four circles to the deities' feet, two to their navel, three to their face, and then he waves it seven times around the deities' whole bodies. He then gives it to another devotee, who presents the lamp to each devotee in the temple room. When offered the ghee lamp, devotees touch the flame with their hands, and then touch their hands to their foreheads.
The pujari then takes a smaller conch and fills it with water. He offers it by waving it three times around the deities' heads and seven times around their bodies. He then pours the water into a shaker; which another devotee takes and walks around the temple room shaking it, ensuring that everyone has been touched by the water.
The next item offered is a cloth, offered seven times around the deities. After the cloth has been offered, the pujari takes a plate with flowers on it and offers it seven times around the deities' bodies. The plate is then taken by another devotee and offered to the rest of the devotees, who each sniff the flowers.
After that, the pujari takes a camara (yak-tail whisk) from beside the altar and waves it before the deities, to keep the flies away from them. In warm weather, he will also wave a peacock fan before the deities.
Frenetic,
You wrote:
"You are wrong. There are several. The fololowing excerpt sums it up pretty well. http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/mith.htm"
Please get a clue. A wacky website is not a good source for history since these idiots have almost no education in Church history. Think I am being overly harsh? I'm not. These idiots you rely on think the following about President Bush: "These new Christian forces of Ahab are in political power now and a man that some think is too stupid to be the Antichrist has killed 100,000 Iraqis as punishment for Saddam Hussein and 9/11. As the true prophets of the Lord stand up to denounce this new generation of vipers, release is brought to the captives." It's posted on their "Home" page. Check it out for yourself.
I post information from a world renowned ancient historian who studied the Mithras cult in depth. You posted nonsense from an idiotic website. Try again.
"Granted, this site is by no means the authority on the subject but pulls together the facts nicely."
Not authoritative? It isn't even correct. Again, it was a poor source to begin with. Cite someone who is a recognized expert or just babble to yourself.
""Mithra was called "the Light of the World." They believed in a heaven and hell and the dualism of good and evil, a final day of judgment, the end of the world as we know it and a general resurrection. Long before Jesus, Dec. 25th was celebrated as the date of Mithra's birth. Mithra was also associated with the sun, and his followers marked Sunday as his day of worship, they called it the Lord's Day. A few of the extra-biblical traditions seem to have found its way to Christianity through Roman Mithraism."
How about some evidence? "Seem" is not very convincing. Is this honestly the best you can do? You are proving my point that you are full of it.
"Among the milder ceremonies of the followers of Mithra were baptism in holy water and a partaking of a sacred meal of bread and wine. After passing several ordeals the converts were "reborn" as a new man in Mithra. Though Mithra had ascended into heaven he had promised to return and bring life everlasting to his loyal followers." "
Mithras followers believed in baptism in bull's blood. They believed it had a purifying and edifying effect. How many religions do not have such a belief? Almost every religion believes in a cleansing ceremony of some sort. That proves nothing. We Jews had a form of baptism as well. Also, Jesus used bread and wine. Are you telling me He was a follower of Mithras? And what about Melchizedek? He also offered a sacrifice of bread and wine. Did you even think of these things before you started believing that revisionist fundie nonsense of yours?
"I've studied many religions. Some notable Dec. 25th birthdays of ancient gods who's certain stories and concepts bear striking resemblance to the Christ story are Attis, Dionysus, Osiris & Mithra, all prevalent at the time of Christ, some by orders of thousands of years prior. Zoroaster's story (not related to Dec. 25) bears some resemblance to Christ as well."
All completely irrelevant ! Who cares if a thousand pagan gods had feast days on December 25th? That does not mean that Christian borrowed a single practice or ritual or doctrine from Mithraism. Put up or shut up Frenetic. You made a claim and have failed miserably to show any evidence from a reputable source to back it up. I already posted evidence - from a reputable scholar internationally recognized for his expertise in the field - who shows that ancient Christians knew that Dec. 25th was picked in OPPOSITION to Mithraism. Show evidence to the contrary of move on.
I'm no expert on Mithraism, but even I can tell that your source has more than a few basic "facts" about it quite wrong. Most notably, Mithraism did *not* employ a baptism of holy water. The equivalent of baptism in Mithraism was to have the candidate stand in a deep trench underneath an iron grate, upon which was tethered a bull. The bull's throat would be cut, and the person underneath would be literally baptized in blood. Any cursory reading on Mithraism would make this point clearly. The fact that your reference site can't even get THIS right doesn't bode well for the level of accuracy in the rest of its assertions.
Comparing bogus and inaccurate ancient pagan customs with equally bogus, inaccurate fabrications of early Catholic (it IS Catholicism that if targeted in all of this comparison, no?) practices is a total waste of time, both for you and any of your readers/listeners. Until you can come up with better source material than the abomination cited, maybe you should re-evaluate what you consider authoritative.
Key passage.
It states that genuine Christianity is inversely proportional to the degree of Vatican "control". Big red flag.
It's sometimes hard to decipher what is being described in some of these articles and one isn't sure whether the enculturation is legitimate or a headlong rush into paganism.
The above passage suggests to me that it's the latter. Whenever the "Rome out" card appears, it's never good.
Then there's this disquieting passage:
The priests say one of the reasons for making these changes official is to neutralise the arguments of the Hindu right-wingers, who often charge the church with forcible conversions and negating Indian traditions
In other words, the Church's mission of drawing all men to Christ is drawing heat, as it always will when done faithfully, and the backlash is making some uneasy. So it seems that this is being done, not to energize the Church, but to placate its enemies. Not good.
St. Paul took St. Peter to task for this sort of thing;
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13
Gal, 2: 11-13
Marshmallow,
You're right. Here's a much different article:
20 April, 2005
INDIA-VATICAN
Indian Bishops: Ratzinger’s profound faith in young people’s thirst for God
by Nirmala Carvalho
Mumbai (AsiaNews) – A man in touch with ground realities but who possesses a profound faith rooted in the Gospel. This is how Mgr Oswald Gracias – president of the Indian Episcopal Conference (CBCI) – defined Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI.
“The election of this pope is the most suitable choice for the Catholic world,” he said. “Benedict XVI is the answer to a need of modern times, even as a means of continuity following the pontificate of John Paul II. The new pope worked with pope Wojtyla for years, and he played a fundamental role in the preparation of many theological and doctrinal documents.” Mgr Gracias is certain that the new pontiff will be of great help to the Catholic church in India. “I met Cardinal Ratzinger several times and in one of our last meetings – around a year ago – he expressed a great interest in our country. His exact words were, ‘India’s spiritual values are in keeping with Gospel values’.” The Indian prelate does not consider Benedict XVI as a conservative: “The truth is that Benedict XVI has a profound faith rooted in the Gospel; at the same time, I consider him a man in close contact with ground realities. The election of this man to the papacy is great news for the Catholic Church in India.”
Mgr Thomas Dabre, president of the Doctrinal Commission and bishop of Vasai – a diocese north of Bombay – said: “I count myself lucky as I met Cardinal Ratzinger on a number of occasions. I consider him as a very reflective person, gifted with great spirituality. As president of the Doctrinal Commission of the CBCI, I feel very supported by his election. He is a theology scholar endowed with a strong faith. He will lead the Catholic Church as a gentle and ardent pastor. The love of Benedict XVI for Christ and for his mission is evident in the words he spoke after his election, ‘God knows how to work even with insufficient instruments’.”
Mgr Dabre also talked about the danger of relativism, denounced by the new pope on several occasions. “Mankind cannot be happy if it follows the dictates of its own will. Relativism is the cause of the spiritual and moral degradation of modern times,” he said. For the prelate, “the only thing which will save Christianity is the authentic and official teaching of doctrine. I am sure the pontiff will help us to follow doctrine joyfully.” Accusations of narrow mindedness and fundamentalism leveled against the Holy Father do not hold water. “The conviction – emphasized by Benedict XVI – that Jesus Christ is the only saviour of the world does not exclude dialogue in any way.”
The Reverend SM Michael SVD is professor in sociology and anthropology at the University of Mumbai. He said of Benedict XVI: “I am thrilled by this election. This German pope will be able to challenge Europe, which is experiencing a faith crisis.” For the lecturer, the crisis comes from “the impact of Islam – which has made itself felt throughout the European continent – and from atheistic trends which are infiltrating everywhere.”
“Anyhow, there is a longing and searching for God in the psyche of all mankind, especially among youths. Only a man with the intellect and scholarship of Benedict XVI could respond to such a need. Mankind is awakening, recalled by its conscience, and it is searching for answers to many questions. There is a deep desire for faith. Mankind is searching for a path with a clear-cut direction and it cannot but respect the firm positions of this intellectual giant.”.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.