Posted on 09/28/2005 4:44:24 PM PDT by NYer
I was a Protestant for twenty years before I became a Catholic. Working as a youth leader, campus and prison evangelist, and church pastor, I led many people — including friends and relatives — out of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it was surprisingly easy. My formula for getting Catholics to leave the Church usually consisted of three steps.
STEP 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting.
Most Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and charismatic Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish.
Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion.
Protestants should be commended for their zeal in promoting conversions. Catholic leaders need to multiply the opportunities for their people to have such conversions in Catholic settings. The reason is simple. About five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. (Believe me, I know; I was a graduate of an Assembly of God college and a youth minister in two charismatic churches.)
Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. Why do so many Catholic leaders fail to see this? Why are they so nonchalant about a process that has pulled hundreds of thousands of Catholics out of the Church?
STEP 2: Give their conversion a Protestant interpretation.
A genuine conversion is one of life's most precious experiences, comparable to marriage or the birth of a child. Conversion awakens a deep hunger for God. Effective Protestant ministries train workers to follow up on this spiritual longing.
Before a stadium crusade, I would give follow-up workers a six-week training course. I showed them how to present a Protestant interpretation of the conversion experience with a selective use of bible verses. The scripture of choice was of course John 3:3, the "born-again" verse: "Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'
I used the "touch and go" scripture technique, similar to that used by pilots training for landings and takeoffs. We would briefly touch down on John 3:3 to show that being born again was necessary for eternal life. Then I would describe conversion in terms of being born again. We would make a hasty takeoff before reading John 3:5 which stresses the necessity of being "born of water and spirit." I never mentioned that for 20 centuries the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, echoing the unanimous teaching of the Church fathers, understood this passage as referring to the Sacrament of Baptism! And I certainly never brought up Titus 3:5 ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit") as a parallel reference to John 3:5.
In my experience as a Protestant, all the Catholics who had a conversion in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.
In twenty years of Protestant ministry, I never met a Catholic who knew that John 3:3-8 describes the sacrament of Baptism. It wasn't hard to convince them to disregard the sacraments along with the Church that emphasized the sacraments.
Proverbs says: "He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him" (18:17). Catholics without a scriptural foundation for their Catholic beliefs never hear "the rest of the story." My selective use of scripture made the Protestant perspective seem so absolutely sure. Over time, this one-sided approach to scripture caused Catholics to reject their Catholic faith.
STEP 3: Accuse the Catholic church of denying salvation by grace.
Catholics often consider Protestants who proselytize to be bigoted, narrow-minded, or prejudiced. This is unfair and inaccurate; a profound charity energizes their misguided zeal.
There was only one reason I led Catholics out of the Church: I thought they were on their way to hell. I mistakenly thought the Catholic Church denied that salvation was by grace; I knew that anyone who believed this wasn't going to heaven. Out of love for their immortal souls, I worked tirelessly to convert them.
I used Ephesians 2:8-9 to convince Catholics that it was imperative for them to leave the Church:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.
First I would say, "The Bible says that salvation is by grace and not by works. Right?" Their answer was always yes. Then I would say, "The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works. Right?" (I never met a Catholic who did not say yes. Every Catholic I met during my twenty years of ministry confirmed my misconception that Catholicism taught salvation is by works instead of grace.) Finally, I would declare, "The Catholic Church is leading people to hell by denying salvation is by grace. You'd better join a church that teaches the true way to heaven."
Because I would also do a "touch and go" in Ephesians, I rarely quoted verse 10 which says, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Listen carefully to stadium evangelists, televangelists, and radio preachers. Nine times out of ten they will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 with great emphasis and never mention verse 10.
We are not slaves futilely trying to earn salvation by doing "works of the law" (Eph. 2:8-9). Yet as sons of God we are inspired and energized by the Holy Spirit to do "good works" as we cooperate with our heavenly father in extending the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:10). Catholicism believes and teaches the full message of Ephesians 2:8-10, without equivocating or abbreviating the truth.
For twenty centuries the Catholic Church has faithfully taught that salvation is by grace. Peter the first pope said, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved" (Acts 15:11). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, fully endorsed by Pope John Paul II, says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God" (section 1996).
Protestantism started when Martin Luther declared that we are justified (made righteous) by faith alone. At the time I was leading Catholics out of the Church, I wasn't aware that Martin Luther had added the word alone to his translation of Romans 3:28 in order to prove his doctrine. (The word alone is not found in any contemporary Protestant English translation of Romans 3:28.) I didn't realize that the only place the bible mentions "faith alone" in the context of salvation is in James 2:24, where the idea of faith alone is explicitly refuted: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." This verse was troubling, but I either ignored it, or twisted it to mean something other that what the verse and its context clearly taught.
Should Catholics participate in Protestant events?
I have no objection to Catholics participating in Protestant-oriented events and worthwhile ecumenical activities provided that:
Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic men born after WWII don't meet the above conditions. For them, attending Protestant functions may be opening a door that will lead them right out of the Catholic Church.
There are now thousands of Catholic men on the brink of leaving the one Church Christ died to establish. I recently heard of a group of Catholic men who decided not to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in their small-group bible study. They believed that all they needed was scripture alone. Three of these men claimed that they no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I can tell you from experience where this group is headed: straight out of the Catholic Church.
Over the past three decades, thousands of Catholics have left the Church for Protestant pastures. The largest church in America is the Catholic Church; the second largest group of Christians in America is former-Catholics. The Catholic men's movement has a solemn obligation to help men discover the biblical and historical roots of their Catholic faith. Then, rather than leaving, they will become instruments to help others discover the treasures of Catholicism.
Remember that a man who leaves the Church will often take his family with him — for generations. It took my family four hundred years — 10 generations — to come back to the Church after a generation of my ancestors in Norway, England, Germany and Scotland decided to leave the Catholic Church.
As one whose family has made the round-trip back to Catholicism, let me extend a personal plea to Catholic men, especially the leaders of various Catholic men's groups: don't put untrained Catholics in a Protestant setting. They might gain a short-term religious experience, but they take the long-term risk of losing their faith. It would be highly irresponsible to expose them to Protestantism before they are fully exposed to Catholicism.
At my dad's funeral twenty-nine years ago, I tearfully sang his favorite hymn, Faith of Our Fathers. Little did my dad, a minister's son, or I realize that the true faith of our forefathers was Roman Catholicism. Every day I thank God for bringing me back to the ancient Church of my ancestors. Every year God gives me breath on this earth I will keep proclaiming to both my Protestant brethren and to cradle Catholics the glorious faith of our fathers.
You are denying the power of God's Grace. All of our works, are work's of God's Grace, a gift which is freely given to us, and which we choose to accept or not accept.
By no means ...
... it is by grace that I believe (have faith).
... it is by grace that God has saved me.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:And ... it is by grace that I live the life which He desires me to live.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Have you ever read Luke 18:18-30, the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus? You believe that Jesus lied and misled this man ?
No ... I do not believe that Jesus misled this man.
I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.
How cruel and manipulative you believe Jesus to be. The man came to him in all good faith to ask him a question. I would consider anyone who gave the kind of response you are claiming to be a complete jerk, so I don't believe that is what he meant. Basically you are saying the Bible cannot be taken literally.
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
How cruel and manipulative you believe Jesus to be. The man came to him in all good faith to ask him a question. I would consider anyone who gave the kind of response you are claiming to be a complete jerk, so I don't believe that is what he meant. Basically you are saying the Bible cannot be taken literally.
Why did Jesus have to die ?
If we could live perfect lives ... why would Jesus have to die ?
It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.
Where have I taken credit for anything ?
I seems to me the rich man wanted Christ to enumerate works which he could do, many of them hopefully accomplished through his position and wealth, so he could achieve salvation. This works based formula was common to those who followed the Jewish Law. Under the new Covenant, which Christ proclaims, this is not possible, thereby he sets the standard so high that the man realizes that he could or would not be able to attain it. "What is impossible with men is possible with God." Through Christ's sacrifice on the Cross what is unattainable through works is attainable through a saving faith in Jesus.
"Well, soon somebody is going to come along and point out that Catholic women like you who have great, guilt free sex also wind up pregnant all the time! -:)"
Hey now!! That's by choice!!! Okay, so some of it is by choice after the fact due to an open mind. LOL! :o)
So, instead, you belong to the cult of sola scriptura?
Peter being the Rock?
Peter being given the Keys to Heaven?
Peter being the shepherd?
Peter being the one to bind?
Teaching authority of Peter?
It certainly did mine. That's why I hold a Reformed view. ;O)
Isn't it common sense? Satan is a highly intelligent demon. If he is the father of lies, he must know what the truth is. He is fully aware of the truth of the Gospel, and tries to get us to deny it through our thoughts or actions. Thus, the devil is fully aware of the testimony of Scripture. Does he trust in it? Does he live it? NO! But according to your previous definition of saving faith, you indicated that belief in the Scriptural testimony was sufficient. That is not enough of a qualification - unless you care to redefine what "belief" is
My friend ... a man's faith is the catalyst ... everything else is a result of God's response to that faith.
FAITH is no more a catalyst than DEEDS! Both come from God. God HIMSELF is the catalyst. Certainly, as Eph 2:8 says, we must have faith (a gift) before our works become "good". But BOTH come from God. Thus, God grants us grace to work and to desire to do His Will. God HIMSELF comes to us, infusing us with His Spirit, enabling us to have both faith AND deeds.
Note in Eph 2:8-10, it notes both faith and works as coming from God. He doesn't say that faith brings out good works, but that we do good works THROUGH faith - it is PRESUMED that one has faith to be able to do good works. In the Gospels, when Jesus mentions ONLY works as necessary for salvation, such as the Rich Young Man or Matthew 25 parables, it is presumed that the person to be saved had ALREADY believed in God and trusted in His promises - thus, the young rich man asks "what must I do for eternal salvation" - presuming that God was the one to provide it.
Again, faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Faith is not a catalyst, although it IS necessary. When you say that Paul teaches that Faith is a key, I take it more like this: in baseball, you must touch first base before you can move on to second base. Before you can do meritorious works that are pleasing to God, you FIRST must have faith. Romans is quite clear that we cannot EARN salvation - against the Judaizers who thought external works WITHOUT faith was good enough. Wrong! One must have faith first, but works does not necessarily follow. We rely on God's grace in BOTH cases - and respond in both cases. Back to Genesis 22, would God have considered Abram righteous if he decided "I love God, I trust in Him and His promises, but I'm not killing my son. He must be mistaken" That certainly was a legitimately possible response. As God inspired Abram to trust God, He also inspired Abram to set out on that sad three day journey to offer up his son...
By the way, I am enjoying this conversation. It has been quite stimulating.
Brother in Christ
It is the central focus of Mass. It's a shame that I have seen in the past, even some catholics (small "c") don't even recognize or believe in the "real presence."
There is nothing more beautiful to me than to pray before the Eucharist in a quiet and empty church.
Have had some of my best conversations w/ God there! ;)
I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...
... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...
... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.
Not true, brother. What about the Apostles? Hadn't they given up everything? Weren't they then "perfect" in God's eyes, under the system of grace? Discipleship means placing God first in our lives. It will not be easy: "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy". Jesus examined the man - and said he was CLOSE to the Kingdom. But he had one fault; his love of money exceeded his love of man and God. That is why the man refused. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT a fictional state of perfection that we cannot achieve. "With God, nothing is impossible", he tells the Apostles when they ask "who can be saved" after Jesus tells them that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle!
God does not set standards that no one can achieve. The Apostles were "perfect" in that they did what God called them to do in all ways. They weren't required to PERFECTLY abide by the Law to be righteous. Joseph, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, Zechariah, all were righteous - and NOT PERFECT! Since they didn't obligate God to save them, they were not under the Law, but under Grace (using Paul's terminology). Thus, God, as our Father, expects us to be "perfect" and HOLY, as God is (not the degree, but the concept), but not to be ontologically perfect.
Jesus didn't come to provide theoretical teachings!!!!
Brother in Christ
Peter being the Rock?
A rock is not always God. Metaphors do not have to exactly match among different human authors!
Peter being given the Keys to Heaven?
Do you perceive that Jesus ACTUALLY HANDED PETER KEYS??? It refers to Peter's new authority that he would have once Christ ascended into heaven. And EVEN if you thought they were real keys, might Christ have another set? I have two sets of my house...Christ certainly didn't give up His power, He is delegating it.
Peter being the shepherd?
FEED MY SHEEP, Christ said in John's Gospel. That's what shepherds do. Are you again saying that Christ can't delegate His authority since He is not visible present on earth (we won't discuss the Eucharist, as it doesn't "talk")
Peter being the one to bind?
ALL of the Apostles, including Peter have this power. But the keeper of the keys has more responsibility. If you go on vacation and give your keys of the house to your neighbor, doesn't he have authority over your house while you are gone???
Teaching authority of Peter?
I don't understand your point on that one. Peter, as highest visible teacher of the Church, is writing pastorally to others to be careful of not twisting Paul's meaning of Scripture. He certainly isn't saying "I don't understand it!" Paul EXPLICITLY visited PETER for two weeks to make sure that Paul had the same Gospel given to the Apostles...Who do you think was learning from whom? Peter lived with Christ for 3 years!
Brother in Christ
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.