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To: nickcarraway
You are denying the power of God's Grace. All of our works, are work's of God's Grace, a gift which is freely given to us, and which we choose to accept or not accept.

By no means ...

... it is by grace that I believe (have faith).

... it is by grace that God has saved me.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And ... it is by grace that I live the life which He desires me to live.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Have you ever read Luke 18:18-30, the story of the rich young man who came to Jesus? You believe that Jesus lied and misled this man ?

No ... I do not believe that Jesus misled this man.

I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...
... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...
... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.

302 posted on 09/29/2005 2:20:49 PM PDT by Quester (If you can't trust Jesus, ... who can you trust ?)
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To: Quester

How cruel and manipulative you believe Jesus to be. The man came to him in all good faith to ask him a question. I would consider anyone who gave the kind of response you are claiming to be a complete jerk, so I don't believe that is what he meant. Basically you are saying the Bible cannot be taken literally.


303 posted on 09/29/2005 2:25:26 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Quester

It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.


304 posted on 09/29/2005 2:26:38 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Quester

It is by Grace that God allows you to have faith, just as it is by Grace that God allows you to follow his Gospel. When you follow the Gospel, you are cooperating with God's Grace. Don't take the credit yourself.


305 posted on 09/29/2005 2:26:44 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: Quester
No ... I do not believe that Jesus misled this man.

I do, however, believe that Jesus truthfully held up for this man a standard (i.e. perfection) ...

... If thou wilt be perfect, ... go and sell ...

... which the man could not possibly attain ... as evidenced by the rest of the story.

Not true, brother. What about the Apostles? Hadn't they given up everything? Weren't they then "perfect" in God's eyes, under the system of grace? Discipleship means placing God first in our lives. It will not be easy: "anyone who puts their hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy". Jesus examined the man - and said he was CLOSE to the Kingdom. But he had one fault; his love of money exceeded his love of man and God. That is why the man refused. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT a fictional state of perfection that we cannot achieve. "With God, nothing is impossible", he tells the Apostles when they ask "who can be saved" after Jesus tells them that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle!

God does not set standards that no one can achieve. The Apostles were "perfect" in that they did what God called them to do in all ways. They weren't required to PERFECTLY abide by the Law to be righteous. Joseph, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, Zechariah, all were righteous - and NOT PERFECT! Since they didn't obligate God to save them, they were not under the Law, but under Grace (using Paul's terminology). Thus, God, as our Father, expects us to be "perfect" and HOLY, as God is (not the degree, but the concept), but not to be ontologically perfect.

Jesus didn't come to provide theoretical teachings!!!!

Brother in Christ

318 posted on 09/29/2005 4:41:00 PM PDT by jo kus
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