Posted on 09/28/2005 4:44:24 PM PDT by NYer
As for the thief, he repented while hanging from a cross. It was not possible to baptize him with water; that is what's known as baptism of desire.
And thus proves the truth of John 3:16. Salvation is by faith not by works (baptism being a work) If Baptism was required for salvation Jesus would have said in John 3:16 ..."whoseoever believes and is baptised" but He didn't say that did He.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Please also note that I am not saying that we shouldn't do good works. I believe that good works are commanded of us. However those works have nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
Ephesians Chapter 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; Ephesians Chapter 2: 9
it is not from works, so no one may boast.
I have contradicted nothing. You have singled out one passage of Scripture to justify the protestant position of salvation by grace. I have demonstrated with other passages the necessity to include works. To supplement this argument, consider St. Paul:
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
I Have Been Saved (past event) - Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
I Am Being Saved (present event) - 1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
I Will Be Saved (future event) - Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Praise God that as a baptizedcatholic, you are guaranteed salvation.
Which have nothing to do with salvation. If we could earn our salvation by works then why did Jesus die? If our works were required then Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient for salvation. But we know that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins. His death paid for (in total) the sins of the world. How can our imperfect works improve a perfect sacrifice. (And all our works are imperfect because we are afflicted with a sin nature. Adam's sin corrupts all of our existence here on Earth.)
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Remember that this part of Ephesians is a directive to the church to live and work in unity (see vs 1-3). Why, because we are all called to that one hope (Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.) which brings us right back to faith. We have one faith so we should live like it.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
The spiritual battle of this life is yet being fought. But we know that we will always be victorious if we stand against the enemy (James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.). Again this verse has nothing to do with salvation as those who put on the armor of God are already saved. If we could lose heaven in battle then Jesus wasn't a very good Savior. Especially since (1 cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.) He constantly gives us victory.
I Have Been Saved (past event) - Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.
Yep.
I Am Being Saved (present event) - 1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.
1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (KJV)
A far more correct translation of the term (sorry my greek font isn't installed) Strong's number 4982. Present tense passive voice. "Are saved."
If salvation is not a one-time event then Jesus has to be recrucified at every sin. Totally un-biblical concept. Jesus died once for all not many times for each.
I Will Be Saved (future event) - Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, and MArk 13:13 are not saying that you can only be saved by enduring to the end. Jesus is talking to those who are already saved. It is warning people that they must endure to the end to remain saved. It is possible (although I believe very rare that God will allow it) to give up one's salvation the same way you received it, by faith.
Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So lets look at the whole verse. Believe and get baptised to be saved vice believe not to be damned. What is the important piece of this, believing or getting baptised? Since John 3:16 doesn't mention baptism at all I'll have to go with believing in order to remain biblically consistent. Baptism is merely the first outward sign of saving faith. If you believe Jesus you will do what he says and he says to be baptised. Faith must come first. and as you've already agreed regarding the thief on the cross, faith alone is sufficient.
Praise God that as a baptizedcatholic, you are guaranteed salvation.
I praise God that I am saved but infant baptism as a Catholic had nothing to do with it. Until I accepted Christ as my personal Savior in 1987 I was lost and destined to hell and no ceremony, tradition, prayer etc was going to change that. The church you go to doesn't save you. I know lost Catholics, lost Baptists, lost Pentecostals etc. Salvation is a personal relationship between you and God. Without that relationship all your works, intentions, gifts etc are merely filthy rags (menstruous clothes to be exact). We cannot buy salvation by our works. It is a free gift.
Catholics (Baptists, Pentecostals etc) Will not be the only ones in heaven and we had better get used to that idea or we'll all be really surprised when we get there. God doesn't care what building you worship in or what denomination it claims to be a part of. When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ he won't be looking at our church attendance records. He will be looking at our heart. If we have accepted Him as Lord and Savior then it doesn't matter if we've attended the 'right' church or not. The true Church of Christ is the union of all believers, Catholic, Protestant and in between.
So brother NYer, I praise God that you are settled in your faith and love God. But we'll just have to disagree on some of the interpretations and/or translations of scripture. As long as you know Jesus as your personal Savior I'll see you in heaven when we both leave this world
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
How I led Catholics Out of the Church [Steve Wood]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
The guy is a tare where he goes to church is irrelevant
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.