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How I led Catholics Out of the Church
Catholic Educators ^ | September 2005 | Steve Wood

Posted on 09/28/2005 4:44:24 PM PDT by NYer

I was a Protestant for twenty years before I became a Catholic. Working as a youth leader, campus and prison evangelist, and church pastor, I led many people — including friends and relatives — out of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it was surprisingly easy. My formula for getting Catholics to leave the Church usually consisted of three steps.

STEP 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting.

Most Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and charismatic Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish.

Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion.

Protestants should be commended for their zeal in promoting conversions. Catholic leaders need to multiply the opportunities for their people to have such conversions in Catholic settings. The reason is simple. About five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. (Believe me, I know; I was a graduate of an Assembly of God college and a youth minister in two charismatic churches.)

Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. Why do so many Catholic leaders fail to see this? Why are they so nonchalant about a process that has pulled hundreds of thousands of Catholics out of the Church?

STEP 2: Give their conversion a Protestant interpretation.

A genuine conversion is one of life's most precious experiences, comparable to marriage or the birth of a child. Conversion awakens a deep hunger for God. Effective Protestant ministries train workers to follow up on this spiritual longing.

Before a stadium crusade, I would give follow-up workers a six-week training course. I showed them how to present a Protestant interpretation of the conversion experience with a selective use of bible verses. The scripture of choice was of course John 3:3, the "born-again" verse: "Jesus declared, 'I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.'

I used the "touch and go" scripture technique, similar to that used by pilots training for landings and takeoffs. We would briefly touch down on John 3:3 to show that being born again was necessary for eternal life. Then I would describe conversion in terms of being born again. We would make a hasty takeoff before reading John 3:5 which stresses the necessity of being "born of water and spirit." I never mentioned that for 20 centuries the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, echoing the unanimous teaching of the Church fathers, understood this passage as referring to the Sacrament of Baptism! And I certainly never brought up Titus 3:5 ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit") as a parallel reference to John 3:5.

In my experience as a Protestant, all the Catholics who had a conversion in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.

In twenty years of Protestant ministry, I never met a Catholic who knew that John 3:3-8 describes the sacrament of Baptism. It wasn't hard to convince them to disregard the sacraments along with the Church that emphasized the sacraments.

Proverbs says: "He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him" (18:17). Catholics without a scriptural foundation for their Catholic beliefs never hear "the rest of the story." My selective use of scripture made the Protestant perspective seem so absolutely sure. Over time, this one-sided approach to scripture caused Catholics to reject their Catholic faith.

STEP 3: Accuse the Catholic church of denying salvation by grace.

Catholics often consider Protestants who proselytize to be bigoted, narrow-minded, or prejudiced. This is unfair and inaccurate; a profound charity energizes their misguided zeal.

There was only one reason I led Catholics out of the Church: I thought they were on their way to hell. I mistakenly thought the Catholic Church denied that salvation was by grace; I knew that anyone who believed this wasn't going to heaven. Out of love for their immortal souls, I worked tirelessly to convert them.

I used Ephesians 2:8-9 to convince Catholics that it was imperative for them to leave the Church:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.

First I would say, "The Bible says that salvation is by grace and not by works. Right?" Their answer was always yes. Then I would say, "The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by works. Right?" (I never met a Catholic who did not say yes. Every Catholic I met during my twenty years of ministry confirmed my misconception that Catholicism taught salvation is by works instead of grace.) Finally, I would declare, "The Catholic Church is leading people to hell by denying salvation is by grace. You'd better join a church that teaches the true way to heaven."

Because I would also do a "touch and go" in Ephesians, I rarely quoted verse 10 which says, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Listen carefully to stadium evangelists, televangelists, and radio preachers. Nine times out of ten they will quote Ephesians 2:8-9 with great emphasis and never mention verse 10.

We are not slaves futilely trying to earn salvation by doing "works of the law" (Eph. 2:8-9). Yet as sons of God we are inspired and energized by the Holy Spirit to do "good works" as we cooperate with our heavenly father in extending the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:10). Catholicism believes and teaches the full message of Ephesians 2:8-10, without equivocating or abbreviating the truth.

For twenty centuries the Catholic Church has faithfully taught that salvation is by grace. Peter the first pope said, "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved" (Acts 15:11). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, fully endorsed by Pope John Paul II, says, "Our justification comes from the grace of God" (section 1996).

Protestantism started when Martin Luther declared that we are justified (made righteous) by faith alone. At the time I was leading Catholics out of the Church, I wasn't aware that Martin Luther had added the word alone to his translation of Romans 3:28 in order to prove his doctrine. (The word alone is not found in any contemporary Protestant English translation of Romans 3:28.) I didn't realize that the only place the bible mentions "faith alone" in the context of salvation is in James 2:24, where the idea of faith alone is explicitly refuted: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." This verse was troubling, but I either ignored it, or twisted it to mean something other that what the verse and its context clearly taught.

Should Catholics participate in Protestant events?

I have no objection to Catholics participating in Protestant-oriented events and worthwhile ecumenical activities provided that:

Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic men born after WWII don't meet the above conditions. For them, attending Protestant functions may be opening a door that will lead them right out of the Catholic Church.

There are now thousands of Catholic men on the brink of leaving the one Church Christ died to establish. I recently heard of a group of Catholic men who decided not to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church in their small-group bible study. They believed that all they needed was scripture alone. Three of these men claimed that they no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I can tell you from experience where this group is headed: straight out of the Catholic Church.

Over the past three decades, thousands of Catholics have left the Church for Protestant pastures. The largest church in America is the Catholic Church; the second largest group of Christians in America is former-Catholics. The Catholic men's movement has a solemn obligation to help men discover the biblical and historical roots of their Catholic faith. Then, rather than leaving, they will become instruments to help others discover the treasures of Catholicism.

Remember that a man who leaves the Church will often take his family with him — for generations. It took my family four hundred years — 10 generations — to come back to the Church after a generation of my ancestors in Norway, England, Germany and Scotland decided to leave the Catholic Church.

As one whose family has made the round-trip back to Catholicism, let me extend a personal plea to Catholic men, especially the leaders of various Catholic men's groups: don't put untrained Catholics in a Protestant setting. They might gain a short-term religious experience, but they take the long-term risk of losing their faith. It would be highly irresponsible to expose them to Protestantism before they are fully exposed to Catholicism.

At my dad's funeral twenty-nine years ago, I tearfully sang his favorite hymn, Faith of Our Fathers. Little did my dad, a minister's son, or I realize that the true faith of our forefathers was Roman Catholicism. Every day I thank God for bringing me back to the ancient Church of my ancestors. Every year God gives me breath on this earth I will keep proclaiming to both my Protestant brethren and to cradle Catholics the glorious faith of our fathers.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholicconvert; catholiclist; repentent
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To: Tax-chick

And our good works aren't really "ours" in the ownership sense, but were "prepared for us in advance, that we should walk in them...


You are correct, but that most definitely is not what I have been told by several RCC members...if they are not ours that means we are not co-operating with God, aka doing good deeds/works...your statement is more Lutheran that God has prepared acts for us in advance that we walk in, or do, when we are brought to Him thru the Holy Spirit...these deeds do not save, but are a result of being saved...

despite what NYer says, no one who has been brought to God by the Spirit does what pleases God...God's predpared acts of love are done through those who are with God...

The works of judgement NYer states from 1 Cor is judgement on our works in life, our following of the commandments of God...the context of that chapter shows this...


221 posted on 09/28/2005 9:55:31 PM PDT by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: phatus maximus

Please ignore my last comment on 1 cor 3:15 in the above post...i was thinking of something else...


222 posted on 09/28/2005 9:59:40 PM PDT by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: DBeers

My atheism is not religion-specific.


223 posted on 09/28/2005 10:04:23 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: NYer

I'm a Protestant and always have been a catholic...small c that is...My beliefs mirror the very earliest of the church...the apostles teachings themselves, which I dare say may and are present in the RCC, but the RCC has added so much beyond those teachings that the church of 55 AD does not resemble the church of 2005 AD, IMHO...

In all i've read the eastern orthodox seem to have the apostolic teachings being followed much more closely than Rome, but again that's MHO...

Either way, I pray you and i and all posting here remain in Christ always...blessings...


224 posted on 09/28/2005 10:06:36 PM PDT by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: Polybius
As a Catholic, I believe that I was saved in baptism,[snip]

"Is this the doctrine of the Catholic Church?"

No.

So, I've now gotten mixed signals. Some say "yes" and you say "no". If possible, is there a link to a source for the official Catholic doctrine in regard to baptism in regard to salvation?
225 posted on 09/28/2005 10:51:10 PM PDT by DocRock (Osama said, "We love death, the U.S. loves life, that is the main difference between us.")
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To: rollinginmybuggy

I did not know I was supposed to turn nasty. Was that in the instruction manual?


226 posted on 09/28/2005 10:56:59 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: visually_augmented

But there is for the most part no central authority. No Methodist or Presbyterian Pope so to say. We see that even a Protestant Church that affirms the creeds and has a clear statement of faith is being divided by controversy. A good example is the issue of non celibate homosexuals in the minsitry and whether to accept to blessing of same sex unions. Look at how many mainline Protestant denominations support abortion. Look at how many think liberal politics is the mission of the church rather than the Gospel of Jesus. I pray for all Protestants who are holding fast to the faith as given in Scripture and affirmed in the creeds. But more and more it seems they are being put aside in the name of appeasing the secular culture.


227 posted on 09/28/2005 11:09:54 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: VermiciousKnid

The Parish I usually hear Mass at always says the Confiter. One I go to once and awhile does not. It really throws me when they go straight to the Kyrie.


228 posted on 09/28/2005 11:15:52 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: NYer

BFD, we Catholics gamble and drink beer at our parishes!

Give me the Catholics, with Irish, Italian, Croatian and Mexicans having fun over the dull British and Scandinavian Protestants any day.

You make cabbage rolls and coffee, us Catholics will be slamming brews and winning Bingo money.


229 posted on 09/28/2005 11:20:00 PM PDT by Central Scrutiniser (Never pet a dog that is on fire)
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To: dubyaismypresident

Oh you sillies. Do you really think the big hat is just for ceremony. Ya gotta have room for a receiver.
By the way. Did you get your Vatican decoder rings?


230 posted on 09/28/2005 11:21:32 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: rollinginmybuggy

Mother Teresa.
Father Damien
Vincent De Paul
Katherine Drexel
Catherine Siena
Augustine of Hippo
Evalyn Waugh
Graham Greene
Walker Percy
Dorothy Day
Flannery O' Conner
Anthony Scalia
Thomas Monaghan (sp). former owner of Dominos Pizza
Francis of Assisi
Frances Cabrini
Thomas More
Father Maximillian Kolbe
Edith Stein aka Sister Teresa.
Pope Benedict XVI
Cardinal Newman
GK. Chesterton
Thomas Aquinas
Father Pavone- Priests for Life
The list could go on and on.


231 posted on 09/28/2005 11:32:00 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: lastchance; NYer; ArrogantBustard
I wouldn't bother with this guy. Hes been on FR for about two weeks and if you check his postings in the forum you'll see he is confrontational and quite rude. I wouldn't be surprised to see him shown the door soon enough.
232 posted on 09/29/2005 12:12:33 AM PDT by warsaw44
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To: DocRock
official Catholic doctrine in regard to baptism in regard to salvation?

The confusion is primarily because baptism can be baptism of blood or of desire, -- baptism outside of the regular church framework, performed by sovereign Christ on an extraordinary basis. But these extraordinary circumstances may not be presumed by us, only hoped for. This is the Catholic encyclopedia on the necessity of baptism (sorry for the long quote):

IX. NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti), The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained, The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance. Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is rounded on the words of Christ. In John, iii, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means. This is the sense in which it has always been understood by the Church, and the Council of Trent (Sess, IV, cap, vi) teaches that justification can not be obtained, since the promulgation of the Gospel, without the washing of regeneration or the desire thereof (in voto), In the seventh session, it declares (can. v) anathema upon anyone who says that baptism is not necessary for salvation. We have rendered votum by "desire" for want of a better word. The council does not mean by votum a simple desire of receiving baptism or even a resolution to do so. It means by votum an act of perfect charity or contrition, including, at least implicitly, the will to do all things necessary for salvation and thus especially to receive baptism, The absolute necessity of this sacrament is often insisted on by the Fathers of the Church, especially when they speak of infant baptism. Thus St. Irenæus (II, xxii): "Christ came to save all who are reborn through Him to God,infants, children, and youths" (infantes et parvulos et pueros). St. Augustine (III De Anima) says "If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." A still stronger passage from the same doctor (Ep, xxviii, Ad Hieron.) reads:"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ," St. Ambrose (II De Abraham., c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:" No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." In the Pelagian controversy we find similarly strong pronouncements on the part of the Councils of Carthage and Milevis, and of Pope Innocent I. It is owing to the Church's belief in this necessity of baptism as a means to salvation that, as was already noted by St. Augustine, she committed the power of baptism in certain contingencies even to laymen and women. When it is said that baptism is also necessary, by the necessity of precept (praecepti), it is of course understood that this applies only to such as are capable of receiving a precept, viz. adults.

The necessity in this case is shown by the command of Christ to His Apostles (Matthew 28): "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them", etc. Since the Apostles are commanded to baptize, the nations are commanded to receive baptism. The necessity of baptism has been called in question by some of the Reformers or their immediate forerunners. It was denied by Wyclif, Bucer, and Zwingli. According to Calvin it is necessary for adults as a precept but not as a means. Hence he contends that the infants of believing parents are sanctified in the womb and thus freed from original sin without baptism. The Socinians teach that baptism is merely an external profession of the Christian faith and a rite which each one is free to receive or neglect. An argument against the absolute necessity of baptism has been sought in the text of Scripture: "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you" (John 6). Here, they say, is a parallel to the text: "Unless a man be born again of water". Yet everyone admits that the Eucharist is not necessary as a means but only as a precept. The reply to this is obvious. In the first instance, Christ addresses His words in the second person to adults; in the second, He speaks in the third person and without any distinction whatever. Another favorite text is that of St. Paul (I Cor., vii): "The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband; otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy." Unfortunately for the strength of this argument, the context shows that the Apostle in this passage is not treating of regenerating or sanctifying grace at all, but answering certain questions proposed to him by the Corinthians concerning the validity of marriages between heathens and believers. The validity of such marriages is proved from the fact that children born of them are legitimate, not spurious. As far as the term "sanctified" is concerned, it can, at most, mean that the believing husband or wife may convert the unbelieving party and thus become an occasion of their sanctification. A certain statement in the funeral oration of St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II has been brought forward as a proof that the Church offered sacrifices and prayers for catechumens who died before baptism. There is not a vestige of such a custom to be found anywhere. St. Ambrose may have done so for the soul of the catechumen Valentinian, but this would be a solitary instance, and it was done apparently because he believed that the emperor had had the baptism of desire. The practice of the Church is more correctly shown in the canon (xvii) of the Second Council of Braga: "Neither the commemoration of Sacrifice [oblationis] nor the service of chanting [psallendi] is to be employed for catechumens who have died without the redemption of baptism." The arguments for a contrary usage sought in the Second Council of Arles (c. xii) and the Fourth Council of Carthage (c. Ixxix) are not to the point, for these councils speak, not of catechumens, but of penitents who had died suddenly before their expiation was completed. It is true that some Catholic writers (as Cajetan, Durandus, Biel, Gerson, Toletus, Klee) have held that infants may be saved by an act of desire on the part of their parents, which is applied to them by some external sign, such as prayer or the invocation of the Holy Trinity; but Pius V, by expunging this opinion, as expressed by Cajetan, from that author's commentary on St. Thomas, manifested his judgment that such a theory was not agreeable to the Church's belief

Substitutes for the sacrament of baptism exist in the supernatural realm, but they are not ordinarily available to us:
X. SUBSTITUTES FOR THE SACRAMENT

The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.

(1) The Baptism of Desire

The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The "baptism of the Holy Ghost" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John, iii), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John, xiv): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins.

[...]

(2) The Baptism of Blood

The baptism of blood (baptismus sanquinis) is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term "washing of blood" (lavacrum sanguinis) is used by Tertullian (De Bapt., xvi) to distinguish this species of regeneration from the "washing of water" (lavacrum aquæ). "We have a second washing", he says "which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood." St. Cyprian (Ep. lxxiii) speaks of "the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood" (sanguinis baptismus). St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, XIII, vii) says: "When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism." The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: "Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven" (verse 32); and: "He that shall lose his life for me shall find it" (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text.

[...]

Catholic Encyclopedia (emphasis mine)

It is also noteworthy that in extraordinary circumstances, baptism can be performed even by non-Christians, as long as the baptiser intends to conform with the requirements of the Church, uses water and the Trinitarian formula. For example, an atheist doctor may perform baptism of a dying baby in the delivery room if his intention is to satisfy the wish of at least one parent. Another sacrament that likewise does not depend on a priest is marriage.

233 posted on 09/29/2005 12:58:04 AM PDT by annalex
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To: lastchance

Jesus Christ
Most Blessed Virgin Mary
St. Joseph
St. Peter
St. Andrew
St. James the Greater
St. John
St. Philip
St. Bartholomew
St. Matthew
St. Thomas
St. James the Lesser
St. Simon
St. Jude
St. Paul

and all the martyrs and saints of the early Church


234 posted on 09/29/2005 1:09:09 AM PDT by annalex
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To: NYer; kstewskis; Victoria Delsoul; Kelly_2000; Raquel; Lady In Blue
In my mind it has always been the real presence in our Lord in the Eucharist, and that it is the vocal point of the celebration of the Mass.

I would never want to leave that.

There is nothing more beautiful to me than to pray before the Eucharist in a quiet and empty church.

235 posted on 09/29/2005 3:38:22 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: cripplecreek
I'm an unrepentant Protestant member of the Catholic ping lists. I'm all screwed up.

I love that! ; )

God bless you, my friend.

236 posted on 09/29/2005 3:39:53 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: phatus maximus
if they are not ours that means we are not co-operating with God, aka doing good deeds/works

That is a misinterpretation of my comment. Of course we are cooperating with God; otherwise we're doing nothing. Nonetheless, the most important action is God's: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

A symbolic illustration might be our cooperation in procreation: my husband and I participate with God in producing a child who is biologically a unique genetic issue of the two of us, as well as a unique soul individually created by God. All of us are necessary for the child to be conceived, but God's action is the more "active," as it were, since the human part is done without our conscious effort or ability to achieve the outcome.

237 posted on 09/29/2005 3:47:50 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Something bad happens? Conservatives get over it!)
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To: DocRock
Thanks for your reply. It is well thought out and well written for ease of understanding.

Thank you for your kind words.

Regards

238 posted on 09/29/2005 4:55:24 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Quester
Do you posit a time when you shall cast any of your children away from you ... because they have not pleased you ?

And do you posit that God forces us into heaven? Reconsider the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. Did the Father kick the son out, or did the son leave?

"Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:39.

ONLY WE can keep ourselves out of heaven. ONLY WE can lose our inheritance - just like a child can disinherit himself from his parents.

Consider this. God loves even those who are in hell. Unfortunately, those people chose not to come into union with Him.

God desires all men to be saved - but some won't be because of their freedom to reject God.

Brother in Christ

239 posted on 09/29/2005 5:03:03 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: TomSmedley
Calvinists have always had a reverence for brain sweat, for the calling of the Christian scholar.

That is probably quite true. However, it still relies on the self and one's own rationale. Protestantism has taken the mystery out of the faith - everything must be rationalized and reasoned - otherwise, it isn't so. At least that is the feeling I get when discussing with Protestants. Don't get me wrong, there are a number of fine Protestant Christians, here on this forum, many who appear much more to be walking with Christ than some Catholics that I know. But the point is the same.

Brother in Christ

240 posted on 09/29/2005 5:09:43 AM PDT by jo kus
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