Posted on 09/21/2005 5:35:38 PM PDT by sionnsar
Your post brought to mind something I just finished reading, which was Cardinal Ratzinger's Sermon on Relativism at the "Mass for Election of the Supreme Pontiff." It is an important message at a time when people are increasingly confused by a dichotomous culture wherein the moral lines keep shifting. Here's the link, you might enjoy reading it if you haven't already.
http://www.nationalreview.com/novak/novak200504190839.asp
(EXCERPT)
"...why do things get worse so fast? It would be well to know, in case the process can be arrested.
The usual explanation is that conscience is weakened by neglect. Once a wrong is done, the next wrong comes more easily. On this view conscience is mainly a restraint, a resistance, a passive barrier. It doesnt so much drive us on as hold us back, and when persistently attacked, the restraining wall gets thinner and thinner and finally disappears. Often this explanation is combined with another: that conscience comes from culture, that it is built up in us from outside. In this view the heart is malleable. We dont clearly know what is right and wrong, and when our teachers change the lessons, our consciences change their contents. What once we deemed wrong, we deem right; what once we deemed right, we deem wrong.
There is something to these explanations, but neither can account for the sheer dynamism of wickednessfor the fact that we arent gently wafted into the abyss but violently propel ourselves into it. Nor, as I will show, can either one account for the peculiar quality of our present moral confusion.
I suggest a different explanation. Conscience is not a passive barrier but an active force; though it can hold us back, it can also drive us on. Moreover, conscience comes not from without but from within: though culture can trim the fringes, the core cannot be changed. The reason things get worse so fast must somehow lie not in the weakness of conscience but in its strength, not in its shapelessness but in its shape[
.]
...Thomas Aquinas writes that when a nation suffers tyranny, those who enthroned the tyrant may first try to remove him, then call upon the emperor for help. When these human means fail, they should consider their sins and pray. We are now so thoroughly under the tyranny of our vices that it would be difficult for us to recognize an external tyrant at all. By our own hands we enthroned them: our strength no longer suffices for their removal: they have suspended the senate of right reason and the assembly of the virtues: the emperor, our will, is held hostage: and it is time to pray.
Nothing new can be written on the heart, but nothing needs to be; all we need is the grace of God to see what is already there. We dont want to read the letters, because they burn; but they do burn, so at last we must read them. This is why the nation can repent. This is why the plague can be arrested. This is why the culture of death can be redeemed. For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before thee . . . a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
AMEN. Thanks for posting this.
This is so frightening, but I have watched it coming for years now in the medical profession.
"Look up, for your redemption draws near."
Excellent, brother. Thank you for posting this.
Excellent, brother. Thank you for posting this.
Those two are not equivalent. "Total depravity" means only that men cannot choose God on their own; it does not mean that men are completely morally peverse. Indeed, Romans 2 contemplates the idea of natural law.
Sorry, pal, you've been overtaken by events. Adolescent boys have already been thrown to the wolves (male and female), and it's only a matter of time before the culture unquestionably accepts it for girls, as well. After all, abortion fixes everything, right?
Well, you're right as to the meaning of "total depravity" and I appreciate the correction. Man, is not "utterly depraved".
However, aside from this correction I would still stand by what I have written. Man in his state of sinfulness find it difficult (albeit not impossible) to do good things. The church is meant to be a light to the world to do good works. If the church refuses to deal with these issues and denounce them, what is the difference and where is the saltiness?
Excellent insight. Why protest clandestine or unjust murders of a tyrant when the culture wishes to enthrone the killing of the helpless and needy? One man's murder is another man's euthanasia.
It's all just a matter of words.....perspective.
Or is it.
Is there an uncrossable line between right and wrong?
We deceive ourselves. Man continuance in "smaller" sin leads to a hardening of the heart so that he is callous towards "larger" sins. Sin no longer seems like sin. Fornication, divorce, drunkenness, etc. are all the mainstay and no one cares. So we move to greater sins like abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia.
Man always have had a history of moving that line of wrong. God has had a history of pushing it back.
You are over-emphasizing the influence of the Church on secular society. This is no longer the Medieval Age when Church and State were in very close union, and morals could be better controlled by this union. Today, the Church is seen as a personal means of reaching to God. It is based on our society's view of individualism, relativism and "tolerance". These ideas stretch the limits of what is considered objectively good and objectively evil. This pluralism is not caused by the Church, nor can the Church itself do much besides speak out against secular society.
Things are much worse than in the days of early Christianity. Back then, religion was considered a natural extension of one's daily life. Whether they were pagan or not, religion and morality was taught in schools as part of culture. Now, the Courts have determined, beyond the dictates of the Constitution, to do away with this ancient freedom. Even if the "Church" (according to your definition) comes to said agreements, do you really think that people will turn away from homosexuality, abortion, and the like?
The only way to turn our society around is to evangelize it and convert it. The Church must continue to speak out against evil, but it is only when we bring people into the Church will they then find out how much having God as an active part of their lives enhances it and gives it purpose. Then, the voice of the people will be heard (at least that is how our government is SUPPOSED to work!)
Regards
Today Churches mirror secular society and few see this as a problem. We have the same rate of divorce, people living together out of matrimony, and abortion. It won't be long before we have the same level of unrepentant homosexuals attending. We go to church and hear the things we want to hear, not the things that makes us squirm in our seats. No talk of hell. No talk of repentance. No talk of how we fall far short of God.
The Church no longer speak up about these things. Oh, to be sure there are Church writings on various topics, but how many times have you heard a discussion on divorce, promiscuity or keeping oneself unstained from the world? Sadly most "Christians" today laugh at such "old fashioned" notions or ignore them. And how likely are we to kick someone out of the congregation for practicing such things? Priests and pastors no longer talk about these things for fear of offending.
So the focus is on how much God loves you, have a waffer, drop some money in the collection plate and see you next week. Forget about telling anyone to clean up their act. It's too "preachy". We don't want to hear it.
"The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?" Jer 5:31
This may sound like I've been reading too much Hal Lindsey, but ... there is an anti-Christ coming. The world is being prepared to receive him.
It is tempting for Americans to look at a Hitler, a Stalin, or a Pol Pot and think, "That can't happen here." Don't be too sure about that this time. Pride goeth before a fall.
As far as statistics go, I am presuming you are considering those who claim to be part of a community, but are probably not active within it. When one considers the ENTIRE community, I would agree with your idea - that the Church reflects the secular society. I believe that if one polls those who are active and actually try to implement a conservative communities' approach to walking in Chirst, I find the statistics are more favorable. Recall Mt 7:21 - "not all who say 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of my Father in heaven". Merely participating in a worship service to feel good about yourself does not make one the "salt of the earth". This is a problem in all Christian communities - perhaps for different reasons.
Unfortunately, the secular press, in their effort to get condonement of their disgusting and immoral sensibilities, likes to point to the fact that many within the Church simply are saying 'Lord, Lord'. The Church seems to have two separate realms - those who follow Christ through their daily walk, and the rest...All we can do is pray that these people will be conform to God's ways and pick up their crosses and follow Him.
We go to church and hear the things we want to hear, not the things that makes us squirm in our seats. No talk of hell. No talk of repentance. No talk of how we fall far short of God.
That is generally true. Most people, because they don't take God very seriously (as shown by their actions, not their mouths) will not want to hear such speeches. However, I am lucky to have an orthodox priest at our parish, and he has no problem bringing up the evil of contraception or abortion when the readings can be taken in that direction. So it is a matter of the individual pastor/priest to put his money where his mouth is. I believe we are beginning to see more orthodox men who take their faith seriously coming out of the seminaries. Of course, I can only speak for Catholics, in a limited sense.
Again, everyone is a product of their cultures, so it is difficult to go against the "flow". I think many pastors are worried about losing parishoners, so many construct sermons that appeal to the hearers - that is how things work in our society - place the blame elsewhere, pump up the self-esteem, tolerate everything, and don't worry about anything, as long as we don't "harm" someone else. The Early Church had to fight many of these battles, as well. It would be interesting to see how they combated them. I believe part of it is based on your theme - more counter-cultural preaching would do wonders. Sure, some would likely be offended. But from my experience of my own orthodox priest, I find the ones who complain aren't really walking the walk anyways.
I suppose it is the nature of the beast that man wants to place himself as the judge of what is right and what is wrong.
Regards
Thanks for the ping!
Once again I think those are excellent points. When I speak of the Church/church I speak of it in general terms. While I believe we both would admit there are many tares out there, the "true" Church has never degraded. Whether it is increasing or decreasing is a matter of speculation based upon flawed statistics since only God knows the heart. I should remind myself that when Elijah felt that he was all alone in the world God reminded him that there were still 7,000 who were in reserve.
Total Depravity does not mean that man is completely evil - i.e. depraved men can love their families. Rather, the idea is that no element of man's nature (mind, body, spirit, will) is free from the taint of sin. A subtle yet significant difference.
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