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To: jo kus
I think those are good and fair points. From my Calvinistic perspective I would have to step back and say this was all predetermined and is consistent with God's plan. But my complaint is not with secular society or the influence of the Church on that society. My complaint is with the Church itself. (Out of respect I'll use the Catholic "Church" characterization although make no mistake that I include Protestant churches as well.)

Today Churches mirror secular society and few see this as a problem. We have the same rate of divorce, people living together out of matrimony, and abortion. It won't be long before we have the same level of unrepentant homosexuals attending. We go to church and hear the things we want to hear, not the things that makes us squirm in our seats. No talk of hell. No talk of repentance. No talk of how we fall far short of God.

The Church no longer speak up about these things. Oh, to be sure there are Church writings on various topics, but how many times have you heard a discussion on divorce, promiscuity or keeping oneself unstained from the world? Sadly most "Christians" today laugh at such "old fashioned" notions or ignore them. And how likely are we to kick someone out of the congregation for practicing such things? Priests and pastors no longer talk about these things for fear of offending.

So the focus is on how much God loves you, have a waffer, drop some money in the collection plate and see you next week. Forget about telling anyone to clean up their act. It's too "preachy". We don't want to hear it.

"The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?" Jer 5:31

14 posted on 09/22/2005 8:55:39 AM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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To: HarleyD
Today Churches mirror secular society and few see this as a problem. We have the same rate of divorce, people living together out of matrimony, and abortion.

As far as statistics go, I am presuming you are considering those who claim to be part of a community, but are probably not active within it. When one considers the ENTIRE community, I would agree with your idea - that the Church reflects the secular society. I believe that if one polls those who are active and actually try to implement a conservative communities' approach to walking in Chirst, I find the statistics are more favorable. Recall Mt 7:21 - "not all who say 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of my Father in heaven". Merely participating in a worship service to feel good about yourself does not make one the "salt of the earth". This is a problem in all Christian communities - perhaps for different reasons.

Unfortunately, the secular press, in their effort to get condonement of their disgusting and immoral sensibilities, likes to point to the fact that many within the Church simply are saying 'Lord, Lord'. The Church seems to have two separate realms - those who follow Christ through their daily walk, and the rest...All we can do is pray that these people will be conform to God's ways and pick up their crosses and follow Him.

We go to church and hear the things we want to hear, not the things that makes us squirm in our seats. No talk of hell. No talk of repentance. No talk of how we fall far short of God.

That is generally true. Most people, because they don't take God very seriously (as shown by their actions, not their mouths) will not want to hear such speeches. However, I am lucky to have an orthodox priest at our parish, and he has no problem bringing up the evil of contraception or abortion when the readings can be taken in that direction. So it is a matter of the individual pastor/priest to put his money where his mouth is. I believe we are beginning to see more orthodox men who take their faith seriously coming out of the seminaries. Of course, I can only speak for Catholics, in a limited sense.

Again, everyone is a product of their cultures, so it is difficult to go against the "flow". I think many pastors are worried about losing parishoners, so many construct sermons that appeal to the hearers - that is how things work in our society - place the blame elsewhere, pump up the self-esteem, tolerate everything, and don't worry about anything, as long as we don't "harm" someone else. The Early Church had to fight many of these battles, as well. It would be interesting to see how they combated them. I believe part of it is based on your theme - more counter-cultural preaching would do wonders. Sure, some would likely be offended. But from my experience of my own orthodox priest, I find the ones who complain aren't really walking the walk anyways.

I suppose it is the nature of the beast that man wants to place himself as the judge of what is right and what is wrong.

Regards

16 posted on 09/22/2005 9:58:05 AM PDT by jo kus
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