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DON'T READ THIS--GOT TO GET SOME THINGS OFF MY CHEST [Worthy insights]
BILL SOMERS' "WHAT'S NEW at END TIMES PROPHETIC VISION" site ^ | 21 AUG 2005 | GREG AUSTIN

Posted on 08/28/2005 12:27:03 PM PDT by Quix

I've Got To Get Some Things Off My Chest

Greg Austin!

www.gregaustin.org

Don't Read This

I warned you - I asked you NOT to read this, but here you are anyway . . . . Consider yourself warned!

I've gotta say something. It's going to make some good, Emerging Church folks mad and it's going to offend "Ex-Church" friends alike. Some "Institutional Church" people won't like what I'm going to say any better. What I need to say is going to be extremely controversial, and knowing I'm going to stir folks up, I'm going to speak out anyway.

Get mad at me if you must; argue with me if you need to; correct me if I'm wrong, but I've got to speak my mind regardless of the danger of anger, disagreement, misunderstanding or correction.

So here goes . . . .

I'm as "Post-Institutional-Church" as anybody I've met or read about. The organizational system of Christian Religion makes my spirit grieve. I'm all about a "Third Reformation" in the church. I live, eat, sleep and breathe "Emerging Church." Those who know me know that's an understatement.

I'm also a "veteran" (maybe more accurately, a "survivor") of the Institutional Church. I was born into a strict religious home. My mother was Choir Director and my dad was Church Treasurer in the old Evangelical United Brethren Church. Later, our church would become part of the United Methodist Church. When the churches merged, my folks left. They felt that the church had become too liberal, too soft, and too generic. The strongest memories of my childhood center on Sunday School and Sunday Worship and Catechism Classes.

My parents were close friends with our Pastor, known to us all as "Pastor Pfaltzgraff." He was a good man – a really good man. His son, Phil and I were best friends, and on many Sundays Phil would beg his mom to ask our family over for Sunday Dinner. Many also were the Sundays Phil's mom would remind her boy of how little food the Pfalztgraff family had available, and Phil would always counter with, "I'll share my dinner with Greg" and he did.

After high school, I joined the U.S. Air Force. On Sundays during Basic Training I attended a different "flavor" of chapel services each week. I wasn't all that religious and I certainly wasn't spiritually-minded. I had two good reasons to attend chapel services: 1) I was a smoker in those days and the troops were allowed to smoke as we waited in line to enter the service. It was a good chance to get a smoke. 2) I was curious about the differences between the Catholics and the Baptists, the Methodists and the Lutherans and all the other "flavors" and nuances of Christianity available on our base.

Three years later, I met Jesus in a powerful and dramatic way. I was "born-again," filled with the Holy Spirit and delivered from a three and a half package a day tobacco habit all in the same day. From that first day as a believer, I began to share my faith and to pray with hurting people.

Within weeks after being saved, the Holy Spirit called me into full-time ministry. My energy for ministry was boundless. I spent early morning hours praying, and the rest of the day was lived in the miraculous exhibition of God's grace in others' lives.

Following my active military duty, I enrolled in Bible College. I was introduced to the basics – the fundamentals of Theology: The Study of God and of His relation to the world. We learned "Systematic Theology," starting before the beginning of time and moving through the progressive revelation of God to mankind. We were introduced to Exegetical theology, Historical theology, Dogmatic theology and biblical theology.

We studied Hamartiology (the doctrine of sin), Ecclesiology (the doctrine of the church), Eschatology (the doctrine of "last things), Pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit), Christology (the doctrines of Christ), Angelology (the doctrine of Angels), Soteriology (the doctrine of Salvation), Anthropology (the doctrine of man).

We learned about Church History and Worship and the doctrine of Stewardship. We studied the origins of the church, the development of the Roman Catholic Church and of the birth of the Protestant Church. (In the process, I decided I am neither "Roman Catholic" nor "Protestant" – I'm just a Christian, a believer, a learner-follower of Jesus. The Church I belong to predates either the Catholic or the Protestant Church!).

We discovered the art and science of biblical hermeneutics which is the basis for the interpretation of all scripture. Understanding this discipline would prevent us from using God's Word out of context, or from committing the common error of beginning with a position and finding a verse or verses to support our presumption (something I have heard many, many preachers and Christians do over the years). One of the cardinal rules we learned was that "Scripture must interpret Scripture." Over the years I've heard my share of bizarre teachings that originated when someone used a "text without a context" which became a "pretext" (a red herring, in the vernacular).

We studied Hebrew and Greek language and culture. We learned about the Aramaic text and delved into the history and the essence of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

We learned about Allegories and Parables. We discovered the interrelation between Old and New Testaments; we studied biblical archaeology, Christological Exegesis, Prophecy and the Prophets, Symbols and Types and what is known as "The Fuller" or "Deeper Meaning" of Scripture. We learned about Typology. We were introduced to the Prophetic Law of Double Fulfillment. On and on the list goes, and it's not my purpose here to bore you with every subject covered in the four-year curriculum that culminates in the Bachelor of Theology degree. My reason for listing these disciplines is to make you aware of some of the process of following what in those days we knew as "The Call of God."

I know that there are those who will vigorously dispute the entire concept of an individual, personal "Call of God." To them I would simply suggest, read your Bible. God has called out men and women for His purposes over and over throughout history. These men and women were separated from the mainstream of humanity. They were separated to dedicate their full lives, purposes and energies to God, aside from the general "call" to every believer to "seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness" and to "forsake" the world and to take up our crosses and follow Him.

I received such a personal "call" in 1971. That "calling" has been confirmed, affirmed and established through many voices and with many "signs following" for thirty-four years. I know, there is a nit-picker reading this who will quickly cry, "But 'signs following' are for every believer!" I know that. I'm not talking about the general principle of "signs following" the believer here. I'm talking about "signs" in connection with a personal, individual calling and confirmation by the Spirit of God. (See Acts 2:43; 5:12; Ro 15:19; 2 Cor 12:12).

For twenty-five years after entering "the ministry" I gave 60, 80 and more hours per week to the endeavor of "ministry."

There are those who would argue against the kind of biblical education I mentioned above. To those I would simply ask, "Who then will let us know when we have believed in error? Who will show us the proper means of interpreting God's word if not those who understand the original languages, the contexts, the harmonies of God's word?"

Please don't point me to 1 John 2: I've already read it. I also know how to interpret it because I learned biblical hermeneutics and because the Holy Spirit within me helps me to understand His truth. I also know that historically, "anointed" and un-educated people have strayed from proper interpretations. Every generation of believers has been subject to mistakes, misunderstandings and erroneous teachings, including my own. Yes, the anointing in us teaches us, but that is not to say that we don't need to listen to people who have spent their lives studying God's word and have communicated wonderful truth to us. Men such as Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Darby and Gill, Nave and Spurgeon, the list goes on and on, have given their lives to enhance our understanding of God's word and we ought not suggest that since "we have the anointing, we don't need those men."

Would you say that the men who studied and gave themselves to learning the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages were unimportant to the Body of Christ, since we all "have an anointing?" Who would have translated the words of John to us so that we could know we have an anointing if not for Bible scholars who gave us a Bible in our own language?

So don't suggest to me that erroneous beliefs don't occur – even in our contemporary, highly-educated world. I don't know how many spurious teachings and false doctrines I've come across – even among respected ministries! The Bible exhorts us to "study to show yourself approved by God." That study sometimes takes the form of formal, structured, systematic teaching. And it always has. There were "schools of the prophets" in the Old Testament. There were rabbinical schools in New Testament times. The Apostles gave "doctrine" to the church, and the church in turn "continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine . . ."

The original Apostles taught and discipled those who came into their ministries. A prime example is that of Timothy, student of Paul. Truths were communicated from one generation of believer to another. And then at some point, two diabolical events happened: First, a "clergy" developed which took the authority, power and rule of the church literally out of the hands of Christ, the true Head of the church. Simultaneously a "laity" was created that had no history or root within either sacred text or in Christian community and experience.

The role of "pastor," a gift given by God to the church to assist the church in the process of maturation and edification and protection was used by these "clergy" to accommodate their newly fashioned positions. Since then, the role of "pastor" has risen and fallen with the times. One generation of "pastor" was looked upon as a pawn, a pauper, a "thing" to be used by unscrupulous men to advance their agendas. The next generation of "pastor" was dictatorial, controlling and tyrannical. This see-saw of cause and effect continues today, and in the wake of this struggle lay the remains of broken, abused, injured, confused and bleeding Christian people who only wanted to find a church where Jesus and not a man or a committee truly is Lord.

We're currently living in an hour when the term "pastor" and the "office of pastor" or if you will, "the gift" of "pastor" (see Ephesians 4:11-16) is being attacked, derided, scoffed at, belittled and disbelieved. So much abuse is being heaped upon the title, and those associated with it, one almost wonders about the source, the motivation of those aiming their flaming missiles at pastors. The characteristics of God – of His glory – are mercy, grace, patience, goodness and truth – in that order. (That's another truth for another day, but trust me - or better, check me out - Read Exodus 34). As I have listened to various "emerging churchers" speak or write about the gift of "pastor" in the negative, there is so much venom spewing forth that I want to point out, call attention to and plead with those involved: "Please, for God's sake, Stop It!"

I know a great number of men and women who call themselves or who are called "pastor." Some of them are maladjusted, almost neurotic, dysfunctional and out-of-control people. Some are in "the business" because they like to be in control of other lives. Some are "on the take," seeking to make financial gain through their position. And guess what? God knows all about it! And God will deal with such unscrupulous and misguided individuals. But the greatest number of "pastors" are good, fine, sincere and wonderful people who have heard the voice of God directing them to serve His church. These are literally, "servants of God and of His people." Their hearts break over the broken; they shed tears over the wounded. They long to see healing come to broken families and to see their communities cleansed and purified and touched with the mercy and the grace of God.

Why else would some of the people I know work full time, secular jobs so that they might give themselves to the work of the ministry? Why would otherwise brilliant men and women serve the church at half or a quarter of the pay scale they could receive if they used their talents and abilities in secular employment? (Trust me, some of my friends would have made fine attorneys, physicians, engineers, architects, builders and more. Some of my friends were attorneys, physicians, engineers, architects, builders and more and gave away those positions for the honor of serving Jesus in His church with all their energies).

To paint "pastors" with the broad brush of judgment is doubly dangerous: First, God and not man is the judge of all. Second, may I shout this gently? "You don't know the hearts of these people!" I have learned to leave alone what I know nothing about.

I want to encourage you to examine the source, the origin of the gift, title, position, or role of "pastor." This gift did not originate with man; it began with God.

Has the title "pastor" been misunderstood, abused, twisted? Absolutely! Are there pastors who are little more than "hirelings" in "the church?" Without doubt! Are there abusive, dictatorial control-freaks wearing the label of "pastor?" Definitely! But just because there are crooked lawyers and medical quacks among us does not mean that all attorneys and all physicians are phonies!

Let it be understood, I am not a pastor. I filled that role from 1973 to 1998, that's 25 years of my life; a quarter century; more than a career in the military. (And by the way, unlike the military, there was no "pension" or "retirement" program and no monetary compensation for those years I spent "pastoring" churches. I live today by faith, trusting that if I "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" "all these things shall be added unto" "us."

During some of the years of "pastoral" ministry, my family "prayed in" our next meals. We have memories of rejoicing when a farmer stopped by and gave us a bushel basket of sweet corn. (We ate sweet corn and water for a couple of days before realizing this was a medical mistake!) We purchased our heating fuel from a church that overcharged us for that fuel while we shivered in a drafty parsonage that lacked insulation. When we left the church, I had to settle a debt with the church for fuel we had used trying to keep our babies warm in the frigid Midwest winters.

I've learned to chisel plow in the spring and to chase sheep and inoculate cattle and all sorts of wonderful pastoral skills in my journey of the past thirty-four years. (I've done these things and more, then had somebody on Sunday morning say to me, "pastor, if you had to really work for a living, you'd understand what we're going through . . . "

I've worked through long nights, cleaning offices and department stores while my wife worked a day job so we could pay for a car that our congregation felt was "appropriate" for their pastor to be seen in and so we could put food on the table and pay for hospital charges for delivering our babies since we couldn't afford medical insurance. And I could go on, but the stories are boring and the things we learned through those years serve us well today. We are the better for those times, and we're far from angry because of them.

We do know something of what it is to "sacrifice" for the honor of serving God's people. And before you yell at me with the accusation, "See! You were out of God's will or you wouldn't have had to suffer!" let me point you to Hebrews 11. Some other folks suffered IN the will of God before us and in greater dimensions than we know anything about.

I've also had the privilege of being known as "The Senior Pastor" of a modern-day "Mega-Church." My income was commensurate to the position, and long gone were the days of struggling to pay the phone bill and the light bill and to keep the water flowing.

Amazingly, we've learned both how to be abased and to abound. "Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need."

But I'm not a pastor today. I no longer wonder or worry about a paycheck from the church: I have no paycheck at all! Yet my "heavenly Father" feeds my family and in the moment I have need, God provides.

And I'm not comfortable with the current expression of "pastor" in the church any longer. (Actually, I don't ever recall being "comfortable" with that expression).

During my doctoral work I focused my attention on the role of the pastor in the local church. I conducted a cross-cultural examination of the modern, evangelical pastoral role, using research in various world regions, including Europe, Southeast and Southwest Asia, the Middle East, Latin and South America, the Pacific and North America. In examining these eight world regions, I discovered that much of what we consider to be "pastoral" roles and duties is actually the product of our particular culture and not the result of a biblical mandate. In about 1993 I began to vigorously pursue a more biblical understanding of the position or gifting of "pastor."

Today I minister mainly to people who have for one reason or another (and there are many) left the "organized" "institutional" church. I know hundreds, perhaps thousands of "out of church" Christians; I am in touch with folks from South Africa to New Zealand and Australia; from Indonesia and Malaysia to Thailand and Germany and England and Ireland and the South Pacific; from South America to North America and beyond - people who love Jesus with all their hearts, but who do not attend organized church services.

Some of these people aren't injured at all. They just sensed the Spirit's leading to walk away from organized church one day and haven't heard Him instruct them to return.

Others have been offended, injured, hurt, abused, controlled, devalued by a heartless "system" of church. Many of these have been given beautiful talents – gifts – that have been unrecognized and unused by the "ruling elite" in the church.

Some of these people brought the injuries on themselves – but they are all people for whom Jesus died, and I, for one will not abandon even one of these, regardless of who is to blame for their pain and suffering. I'm sorry, if you don't like the fact that I will run to the aid of someone who is to blame for their own hurt, you'll have to take the matter up with God. In fact, while you're at it, why don't you ask Him what He thinks of broken-hearted people who caused their own pain? (I'll help you – we ALL cause some of our own pain, and He keeps loving us, reaching to us, embracing us, welcoming us even running to us to bring us back into His arms of love).

I also spend a good deal of time with often-frustrated pastors who are seeking with all their hearts to hear God and to obey Him implicitly.

I guess I'm a bit like a bridge – made to be driven over. I seldom notice the Narrows Bridge that connects the Kitsap Peninsula of Washington State with the main body of the continent. I cross that bridge every week that I'm home. Yet when I am approaching the bridge, my only thoughts concern the amount of traffic trying to get across. I don't ever recall pausing to look at the bridge or to even be consciously thankful the bridge is there. It's just a means of getting me over the gulf of Puget Sound and onto dry ground on the other side.

And I think I'm a bit like that bridge – which suits me just fine.

Years ago, a guy named Jeff Lucas was visiting us from England. He had carried an almost silly-looking, wooden staff with him across the Atlantic. He told me of his embarrassment when flight attendants asked him what the staff was for, was he Moses or some biblical character come alive again? Yet Jeff felt the Lord had instructed him to bring the staff with him on his flight.

One night during a time of prayer at the altar of our church, Jeff suddenly grabbed his staff, reached out over several people and laid the thing on my shoulders, one after the other. At the same time he began to prophesy, "You are a bridge! Don't ever forget this moment. God has called you, prepared you, ordained you to become a bridge!"

I didn't understand his words that night any more than Jeff did. We talked about it, wondering what the words meant.

Years passed and one day I found myself sitting in the home of a pastor as he told me with much pain about several people who had been faithful members of his church who had suddenly disappeared. He had tried to make contact with them, but to no avail.

Later, I went to the home of one family we had discussed. I spent several hours with them, listening to their hurts, their questions, their hearts broken open before me bringing tears to my eyes.

As I left the family's home, the memory of Jeff Lucas and his staff pierced my mind, and I began to understand the "bridge" the Holy Spirit was talking about through Jeff.

With Judy Collins I can say "I've looked at life from both sides now . . . " I can see from the perspective of the often-frustrated pastor and from the view of the often frustrated believer.

And I agree with both sides! I understand the "old" and the "new." I relate with the hearts of the "in" and the "out," of "leadership" and of "followership."

Among the difficulties I encounter with "pastors" of the "institution" is a fear of those who have left church. There's also a sense of fear among leaders to examine alternatives to the current structural church - the biggest fear is probably of the potential loss of a paycheck, which must be countered by the admonition of scripture to live by faith, to trust in God and to remember that His word declares that "a man's gift will make a way for him."

Typically, pastors (who may or may not be experiencing a "leak" in the hold of church attendance and membership) will question why we would want to do anything different than what we've always done. But the old adage "We've always done it this way" doesn't cut it in a world that's been rearranged by modern realities – fractured homes, a transient society, changing morays, fatherless children, time constraints and the need for rock-solid, real and valuable relationships.

People are tired of going to church, Sunday after Sunday only to "stare at the back of somebody's head" for two hours, then go home feeling "I've done my religious duty." Increasingly, people don't have time to give to a church that produces a shoddy representation of Jesus and a thin veil of spirituality.

Believers are weary of potlucks, church socials and most of all, exhausting programs that do little to win hearts to Jesus or to bring healing to communities.

Pastors are tired of preaching sermons, Sunday after Sunday, feeling somehow that a bunch of spiritually-starved people have wandered into the feeding trough of the church with knife and fork in hand demanding, "Feed me! Feed me!" when they should have been "feeding" themselves all week long without the luxury of a ready-made, professionally designed spiritual diet.

Pastors are weary of spending hours upon hours placating grumpy church members by sitting with them in their homes, listening to their complaints about other church members or other pastors and drinking weak coffee and eating fattening pastries while their cities around them are dying for a witness of the life of Jesus.

I know, I'm being extreme – it's my nature – you don't have to like it, but if you want to read this, you'll just have to endure my extremity.

In the words of my Northern Irish family, "Aye, laddy, we've got ourselves in a wee sit-ee-ation here!"

The Cure: Part Two of "I've Got to Get Some Things Off My Chest."

Let me be clear: In an atmosphere of great and massive change in the church of Jesus Christ, and while we await the emergence of an entirely new expression of the entity called “the church,” we cannot, we must not ever lose sight of the singular fact that THE church, God’s church, the church for which Jesus bled bled and died will never cease to exist until it has completed its full mission in the earth and the marriage of Christ’s Bride to her Betrothed is accomplished.

Even a cursory look at church statistics is enough to cause us to understand that the thing we call "the church” is in deep trouble. Church attendance is almost universally down, churches are closing their doors, selling their properties; denominations are holding emergency meetings to examine what has gone wrong, where they are failing, and what to do to change the direction in which their movements are going.

If you care to spend the time, visit George Barna’s website (www.barna.org/) and read the numbers for yourself. As in every other arena of life, “the numbers don’t lie.”

So what position and attitude should we take regarding this wholesale transitory stage we find the church, and ourselves in? Should we be fearful? Hopeful? depressed?, encouraged? What is happening to the church we once knew, loved and flourished in? Allstate Insurance for years used a television commercial that stated, “You’re in Good Hands, with Allstate." The voice of Allstate was an announcer from Des Moines, Iowa named Ed Reimers, whose deep baritone voice exuded strength, confidence and trust. The message was clear: If you were insured by Allstate, you need not worry about accidents, freak weather, or any other tribulation that life might bring, Allstate would take care of you.

We might say with strong confidence: “You’re in Good Hands with Jesus.” In other words, if the church is God’s idea, if it is His creation and intention, we humans don’t need to lose sleep worrying if the church will continue, succeed or prosper. If God is in control, it would be sin to worry about what will happen to His church.

Understand first of all that the Church of Jesus Christ moves forward – even in historical times when attendance is on the decline, discouragement among pastors is on the increase and every visible indication is that the church, like a punch-drunk boxer is clinging to the ropes, ready to take the proverbial “standing eight count.” Success in Christ’s church is not dependent upon or even gauged by any particular moment of time, current circumstance or momentary indication. The Church of Jesus is both universal and eternal in God's eyes, and so must be judged by the entire scope of history and time and even beyond the confines of time.

If we were to use a spiritual microscope to examine the condition of the church during the infamous “Dark Ages” we would conclude that the church had nearly become extinct and would surely cease to exist if the trends we were examining through the microscope were to continue.

But by using the long lens of a spiritual macroscope - God’s eternal Word - we gain a vastly different impression, diagnosis and prognosis of the church.

Understand that the Church of Jesus bears a Divine Destiny – a destiny determined by God Himself. And that destiny will be fulfilled not because of great leaders or great ideas or great revelations given to men, but because of five simple words, spoken by the very Designer and Architect of the church, Jesus Christ. In Matthew 16:13-20, Jesus declared, “I will build My church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

So while church statistics are almost universally on the decline, and while increasing numbers of people are walking out of and not into the doors of conventional churches, what I and many others refer to as the Institutional Church, I remain fully confident in the future and in the success of the church.

My confidence has nothing to do with social or cultural trends, and it is not because of some new under- standing or development of cutting-edge thinking, but my confidence has everything to do with the words spoken by Jesus that promise me He will build His church!

He said it: “I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” This statement tells me that all the combined fury, rage, anger, hatred and cunning of the enemy of man’s soul cannot frustrate, detain, discourage or stop God’s church because Jesus Himself makes it clear that His church will grow not weaker, but stronger as the days of the end time advance. The destiny of the Church is greater in 2005 than it has ever been in history.

Examine Jesus’ statement with me: Jesus said, “I”; in other words, the building of His church is not dependent upon you, me, some denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, some local church, or any group of holy men. It is the exclusive responsibility and ability of Jesus and no other person, entity, conclave or assemblage to give life and continuation to His church.

A divine structure must have a divine Builder, and Jesus is that Builder, case closed. He said “I will build My church. . .” The use of the first person “I” both relieves and rebukes us from our futile attempts to build anything. We talk about the ministries “we” have built. We speak of “our” ministries. We look at what the anointing of the Holy Spirit has accomplished and are tempted to say "I" did something great for God.

The truth is only Jesus is capable of building what only heaven understands. When David, king of Israel declared “I will build a house for God” the Lord responded by saying, “Will you. . .?” God made it clear to David that He, the Lord would build a house for David. That house was made manifest in the Person of Jesus, the Son of God. And it is Jesus – and only Jesus Who has the ability to build His church. He said “I will build My church. . .” The intention, purpose and determination of heaven is that His church would be built. There is no “if” involved here; no “maybe” or “should the opportunity arise” included. It is the purpose and will of God that His church should exist.

Further, Jesus said “I will build. . .” That is heaven’s intention, and if heaven intends to design, engineer, build, construct a spiritual edifice called “the church,” then it will happen.

He further stated, “I will build My church.” It is His church, expressly, completely, totally, and exclusively. The church does not belong to the Roman Catholics, the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Assemblies of God, the Lutherans or any other body, group, denomination or faction. It is His church. He constructed it and paid the mortgage for it with His own, divine blood.

And finally, He said, “I will build My church.” This is the structure, the configuration and the manifestation of His purpose. This also is the great point of tension in our current hour. The great question today should not be “will the church survive?” but rather, “What should the church look like?” Its existence is not in question or in jeopardy; its appearance is.

I find it worthy of note that Jesus began His instruction about the church with the word “I”. Remember Who He is: Jesus is God. Throughout His earthly ministry, Jesus’ emphasis was continually on “I am.”

Recall the incident in Moses’ life at the burning bush. The Voice that answered Moses when he asked, “Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me to you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say to them?” God’s simple response was “I AM THAT I AM: say to them I AM hath sent me to you.”

Now remember Jesus’ conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well in John chapter four: When the woman guessed that Jesus might indeed be the promised Messiah, He said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

In John chapter six, with the backdrop of a hungry multitude, fed by five fish and two loaves of bread, Jesus said, “I am the Bread of Life.” In John eight, the Scribes and the Pharisees sought to tempt Him, and Jesus responded, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

In John nine, Jesus encountered a blind man and said, I am the light of the world.” In the next chapter, Mary and Martha wept because their brother, Lazarus had died and Jesus announced, "I am the resurrection and the life.” In John fourteen, He told Thomas and the disciples and you and me, "I am the way, the truth and the life.”

Finally, when Roman soldiers appeared in the garden to arrest Jesus, He asked, “whom do you seek?” When they answered, “Jesus of Nazareth”, He said simply, “I am He” and these rough soldiers fell to the ground at the power and authority of His Name. And if a detachment of soldiers collapses at the name “I AM” what will happen when He declares “I, the I Am, God, very God, will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it?”

There are three thousand different names in the Bible, but one Name towers above all other names, and it is this name, the name of Jesus, a Name greater than any other name, because He was “given a name above every name, That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the the glory of God the Father.

In the book of Revelation, His voice rises once again as He proclaims, “I am the first and the last, I am He Who lives and was dead; and am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of hell and of death.” We hear His voice and we sense His ultimate authority as He announces, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, I am the bright and the morning star” And it is He who has declared "I will build My church.”

Think logically with me: If He built a mighty nation of two million from 70 paltry outcasts under the eyes of Pharaoh in Egypt; If He stacked the waters of the Red Sea in a heap and made a highway for every Israeli foot to pass across on dry ground; If He could produce water from a rock to quench thirsty throats and send manna from heaven to feed hungry bellies, if He healed the blind, cast out devils, called Lazarus to life from the dead; if He defied the royal seal of Caesar, tore away the bars from the grave, and threw the machinery of death into reverse, if He destroyed principalities and powers, triumphing over them in the victory of the Easter Tomb, then I ask you – can He build, sustain, prosper and keep His church in the twenty-first century?

He said “I will. . .” He did not say “I Hope” to build. He began that construction by His own death on the cross. He arose from the dead, ascended into heaven, poured out His Holy Spirit among those who would believe; He possessed them, activated them, motivated them and sent them into the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the good news of salvation in His Name and in so doing, Jesus established His church in every corner of the globe where man is found.

Think about this: At the moment of His crucifixion, He knew what lay ahead for the enterprise we call the church. He understood the difficulties that would come; He knew about the trials and tribulations, the hard- ships and the frustrations that would accompany His followers. He knew about rejection and rebellion, disillusionment and despair that would seek to stop the march of His army. In the very moment that the church was formed in the eternal mind of God, Jesus was aware of every tribulation and calamity the church would ever face.

As He hung there, suspended between heaven and earth atop Golgotha’s brow, He knew the weakness and vacillation of His disciples. He realized that Peter had denied Him, Judas had betrayed Him, His followers had forsaken Him. He knew about the persecutions to come in Rome and the ugly wrath of Marcus Arelius and Diocletian. He knew about fiery torches and hungry lions and blood-stained arenas where His followers would seal their faith in blood.

He Knew darkness settle over world. Knew about formalism, liberalism, modernism, postmodernism, He knew full well that the love many wax cold, but said I Will Build My Church not because of us, but in spite of us!

In spite of current predictions of failure; in spite of men departing the faith and evil men growing worse & worse; in spite of it all, I will build My Church! What He began, He is able also to perform. And we can be encouraged: He is and He will build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!

The great question being asked around the world as I write this is “what shape, what form, what structure will the church have?

Can you imagine the generations of people living in Israel in the inter-testamental period, between the conclusion of the Book of Malachi and the beginning of the New Testament?

Spiritual Israel understood that God would send a Messiah, a mighty Deliverer, a Savior. But what would He look like? What would He sound like? How would He dress? From whence would He come?

Nobody had the answer. Nobody could see clearly the form God’s deliverance would take.

A man named Simeon saw Him – a Baby, eight days old, carried to the Temple to fulfill the Law. And Simeon cried out “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

This is the first face of God’s Messiah, the first face of the church. Its form, still indefinable, its structure yet to be developed, its shape yet to appear, but Simeon, by the Spirit of God made it clear; this was Messiah – this was the Church. Whether Joseph and Mary or any other Scribe or Pharisee or thinker understood it or not; this was Messiah – this was the Church.

And modern day “Simeon”, the prophetic voice in the earth today sees an infant form, an undeveloped structure, and announces once again, “for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which You have prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of Your people Israel.” This is the Emerging Church. This is the “yet-to-be-recognized” vessel that will repel every effort of the enemy and will prevail against the very gates of hell. Even now the childlike voice is being heard. Followers of Jesus – and not man’s institutions or definitions of church are hearing the sound, inarticulate but distinct, immature but strident, beginning to sound out the first adolescent words that will become the concerto of heaven, the church of the living God, the expression of the Person of Jesus in the earth.

In His Grace, Greg

Emerging Church - A Response to our Detractors

Greg Austin

There are buzzwords inclusive to every stratum of society, every organization, movement and conclave of man: There always have been. Sadly, buzzwords and catchphrases seldom define anything with clarity and accuracy.

Perhaps nowhere is there as much potential abuse of “words” than in the arena of spiritual life, eternity, “the church” and religion.

Over the years I have developed what I call “Austin’s Laws of Ministry.” These are not exclusive to myself, but they are the important “laws” I have observed over 34 years of walking with Jesus and of ministering to people. I only have two laws on my list. When I get smarter, I’ll add more laws, but for now, these work for me. Law Number One is this: “People Aren’t Stupid.” Law Number Two is: “Words Mean Things.”

It’s Law Number Two that I want to bring into focus for this discussion. When I was a pointy-headed theology student back in prehistoric times, my professors were fond of repeating a sort of “mantra” to we students. Over and over again until it was drilled into our mushy brains we heard the command: “Define your terms.” In other words, “words mean things” and we must be clear about how we use words and what definition or meaning is assigned to them.

A case in point: Talk about “church” to any large group of people and ask for individual meanings and understandings of the word. I’ve done this exercise. It’s enlightening to discover how many disparate and varied meanings a simple, single-syllable word can have.

So when we hear or use the term “Emerging Church”, we might rightly expect to find a wide variation of meanings and understandings.

I want to be clear: When I personally speak of “Emerging Church” I am not in any way, form, manner or fashion identifying with any certain, tangible group of people. I am a follower of Jesus, not of any organization, movement, fad, group, or classification of people.

I don’t care about vogue and popularity. I could care less about “jumping on the bandwagon” of this movement or that movement. I refuse to be categorized as “this” or “that” kind of Christian.

When I speak about “Emerging Church” I am simply referring to the reality that much of what we have been taught, much of what we do, much of our church “practice” has been tainted, mutated, polluted from the original template as revealed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles, and recorded in the Word of God.

Further, when I talk about “Emerging Church” I am referring to the quest to rediscover, to go back to the roots, the origins of spiritual worship; to find an authentic expression of Christ’s Body in the earth. To reject denominational differences, the traditions of man, the expressions passed to us by the Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church or of anybody’s church except Jesus’ church. I know, scoffers will wag their heads at my simplicity and perceived naivety. But knowing that I appear naive, I’m still on the journey; still searching out the authentic; still determined that I will see a church against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

So when I speak of or represent “Emerging Church” I’m not talking about a departure from classical, biblical, evangelical thought or doctrine. I’m talking about a departure from the religious traditions that man has laid on the skeleton of the church to create (in some instances) the monster of religion that looms in our current society.

To me, “Emerging Church” is simply “Authentic Church.” It’s the Church of Jesus Christ and of the Apostles. It’s the true and straightforward appearance of the Body of Christ in the earth, on a mission to bring the earth to faith in Jesus.

I once was asked by a nice Roman Catholic lady, “Are you a Protestant?” My response was, “No, I’m not a Protestant.” This confused my friend who said, “But you’re not Catholic, so you must be Protestant.” I like to have fun, but usually there’s a serious meaning in my humor and I said to her “But I’m not protesting anything!” She then asked, “Then what are you?” I said to her, and to you, “I’m a Christian; a learner-follower of Jesus.”

The point, Dear Reader is this: Don’t label me. Don’t try to “massage” my words into some kind of cultish, weird aberration of Christianity. There are “Christian Apologists” (so-called) who rub their hands in glee and cackle like gloating conquerors if they can morph someone’s words into their version of heresy or biblical deviation.

Don’t try to pigeon-hole me into your contrived lexicon of religious whackos – I won’t fit there.

I’ll attempt to follow my professors’ edict and “define my terms” as I write, but I also don’t want to muddy the waters with unnecessary explanations. This means you’ll have to make certain basic assumptions as you read: Assumptions such as when I talk about “Christianity” or “Jesus” I’m talking about the spiritual truth revealed in the Bible – and for you “King James Only” folks, I’m talking about the truth revealed via the King James Bible. When I talk about “Jesus” I mean God’s only begotten Son, Who was born of a virgin, and Who lived a sinless life and died an atoning death and Who arose from the grave on the third day and ascended into heaven making a new and a living way whereby we might be redeemed and restored in our souls, our spirits, to vital relationship with our Creator-God.

So, unless I give you a peculiar definition for any certain term or statement, you may assume I’m coming from a classical, biblical, evangelical, traditional, historical perspective. Goodness, gracious, the length one must go these days to prevent being labeled as a “this” or “that” kind of Christian! When I started this journey thirty-four years ago I was asked, one day into my new life, “Are you Pentecostal?” I’d never heard of the word “Pentecostal” but thought, “Who knows, maybe I am, even though I don’t know what a Pentecostal is” and so answered, “I don’t know.” I was then asked, “Are you a charismatic?” Now I’d heard of “automatic”, “cinematic”, “thematic” but I’d never heard of “charismatic” but again thought, “Maybe I am and don’t know it” and I said again, “I don’t know.” My by now frustrated inquisitor then asked in obvious frustration, “Well, what are you?” And in my innocence (and trepidation) I blurted, “I’m a Christian!” And thirty-four plus years later, knowing now what a “Pentecostal” and a “Charismatic” is, I’d still answer, with more conviction than then, “I’m a Christian.”

Got it? That’s what I am. I’m a Christian. On Saturday, May 18, 1971 at about 9:00 in the morning I told Jesus I was sorry for all the sins, all the rebellion, all the evil, all the foolish things I’d ever done in my life. I repented – I turned and went another way; away from myself and my wants towards God and His wants. I was changed; transformed; born again; redeemed; saved when I prayed that prayer. I was not a child that morning; I was twenty-one years old - Old enough to legally purchase tobacco and alcohol and old enough to vote for the President of the United States. I was considered an “adult” by society’s judgment and was in my right mind when I had that conversation with Jesus. In that moment I was forgiven of all my sins. I was washed, purified and made whole by the Blood of Jesus. I was ushered into a living relationship with a living Savior. I was translated from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light. I became a Christian in that moment when Jesus heard my contrition and my godly sorrow. I’ve been a Christian now for thirty-four years and three months tomorrow.

So to what do I object in the myriad of internet hits one can discover in a simple “Google” search for “Emerging Church?”

Here’s a direct “copy and paste” quote from a website purporting to give the reader clear and positive identification of anyone talking about the “Emerging Church.”

...labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering and

contemplative prayer...

Without contemplative spirituality, the emerging church would be nothing more than couches and candles.

What? What? “labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering and contemplative prayer...”? In the vernacular, “do what?”

Now I’m sure somebody out there, some spiritual investigator, some inquisitive mind, some experimenter of the realm of the spirit adheres to such folly. I’ve seen enough weird and strange stuff in my lifetime that I don’t doubt there are such folks floating around the fringes of faith, but coupling this statement with the conclusion that “Without contemplative spirituality, the emerging church would be nothing more than couches and candles” is absurd at best and entirely stupid and misleading at worst.

Don’t get your feelings hurt when I say that this kind of judgment-without-the-facts statement is irresponsible and foolish and harmful and just plain wrong. And if I just hurt your feelings, please forgive me, I’m not mad at you, but I won’t retract my observation.

Let’s attempt to define some terms here: “Contemplative Spirituality.” There’s a great place to start, because prior to surfing the web, looking at various treatises on the subject of the “Emerging Church” I had never heard of “Contemplative Spirituality.” So let’s see if I can get this straight: I’ll be back after I’ve read up on the subject to get an understanding.

OK, I’m back. I’ve read a bunch of words about “Contemplative Spirituality” and I’m ready to give you my results.

1) I have no idea what the term “Contempative Spirituality” means. It's beyond me and foreign to my faith and my understanding of the practice of Christianity.

2) I’m not interested in either “Contemplative Spirituality” or “...labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering and contemplative prayer...” I’m interested in knowing Him (Jesus) “in the power of His resurrection and in the fellowship of His suffering.”

3) I don’t like the tone of those who seem to want to attack anybody they don’t like. I never read about Jesus attacking anybody. Oh, He identified people according to their spirits, but He never lashed out, attacked or accused anybody. He loved even His enemies and His opponents and would have gladly forgiven them their sins and befriended them if only they would have allowed Him to do so. Oh, I want to be like Jesus.

4) After having studied about “Contemplative Spirituality” and all the supposed evils of the “Emerging Church” I’ve concluded that while there are some strange ideas floating around the spiritual atmosphere of The Church, neither I nor anybody I know in the “Emerging Church” camp is part of that strangeness. We’re just, as I indicated earlier, “Followers of Jesus” but we are also, and as importantly “Rejecters of Religion.” We hate religion. We hate man-made attempts to get to God. We despise the forms, functions and programs of man-made spirituality, “church”, religion, call it what you will.

5) I think that as a reaction to the man-made religion and religious traditions of men that we've experienced in the past several hundred years, it's normal and expected that exploration of other "ways" of practicing our faith would occur. Whenever one explores unknown territory, there is the occasional foray down dead-end paths, worthless trails and into confusing terrain. Henry Ford wasn't judged by his first attempts at building an automobile, but by the finished product after years of trial and error. Could we please wait to pass judgment on the burgeoning "Emerging Church" movement until sufficient light is shed on the subject and we can see at least a "Model A" appear?

6) As I was taught in college, in theology and in church practice, just as in every discipline of life, one must learn to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” of every teaching, posit or theory. It is a glutton and a child who swallows everything set before him. It is a sign of maturity when a person “tries the spirits” and will “taste and see that the Lord is good.” We must be like the Bereans, who were commended because they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so (Acts 17:11). I'd prefer to measure Emerging Church theology, practice and understanding against the Scriptures rather than against contemporary detractors and antagonists.

So who are we, the people of g2k? Who am I? We are seekers of genuine, authentic, true New Testament, even “primitive” Christianity. We want to know the God of the Bible through His Son by the power of His Spirit. We want to worship in “spirit and in truth” and we’ve discovered that so much of what passes for Christianity is in reality a deviation from the original truths given us by Jesus and by the Apostles. We reject this man-made stuff with all the vigor and strength we possess.

We aren’t followers of Saddleback or Willow Creek or Brian McClaren or The Ooze or any other label, group, element or sect. We are followers of Jesus.

Here’s another statement taken from the same website quoted above, “The Emerging Church is emerging, but not with the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Wow! What a statement! Now, I’m certain that certain elements, certain people who align themselves with the term “Emerging Church” may be devoid of a comprehension or adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Word of God, but to paint all “Emerging Church” folks with the same broad brush is like meeting the Green River Killer, discovering that he possesses citizenship in the United States and determining, “Americans are all serial killers.” Such a determination defies simple logic. The same mistake is being made by applying judgments against everyone who uses the term “Emerging Church.”

And now, in my appraisal, I’ve said enough about the detractors, would-be experts and so-called Apologists who seem to be against nearly anything that isn’t just like them. I’ve got other things to do – such as live out the gospel – the Good News of Jesus Christ and to discover the Church He Himself promised He would build. A church made “not with hands” a church of His design, architecture and purpose, without the dictates, demands and interpretations of man.

Working my way through the “labyrinth” of religion, religiosity and religious men to find the Jesus of the Bible and the church of His design is enough for one man’s life work, I would think.

So, I’m an “Emerging Church” guy, determined not to become a spiritual moth attracted to some false light, but to be a lover of God and a friend of Jesus and of Publicans and Sinners alike, and to point as many souls as possible to the heaven God has prepared for all those “who love His appearing.”

In this world of deceptive voices and of seducing spirits, please know there is a sure way, a true path, and that Jesus’ sheep know His voice. Don’t live in fear. Don’t tremble with trepidation that you are being deceived. Talk to Jesus; the Jesus of the Bible. Tell Him the desire of your heart. Follow Him as His word is revealed to you and as the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein (Is. 35:8).

Blessings to you on your journey! May you find that authentic and true representation of Jesus in the earth and in your own heart.

In His Grace,

Greg


TOPICS: Apologetics; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology
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I love this line:

The truth is only Jesus is capable of building what only heaven understands.

AND:

He further stated, “I will build My church.” It is His church, expressly, completely, totally, and exclusively. The church does not belong to the Roman Catholics, the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Assemblies of God, the Lutherans or any other body, group, denomination or faction. It is His church. He constructed it and paid the mortgage for it with His own, divine blood.

Think logically with me: If He built a mighty nation of two million from 70 paltry outcasts under the eyes of Pharaoh in Egypt; If He stacked the waters of the Red Sea in a heap and made a highway for every Israeli foot to pass across on dry ground; If He could produce water from a rock to quench thirsty throats and send manna from heaven to feed hungry bellies, if He healed the blind, cast out devils, called Lazarus to life from the dead; if He defied the royal seal of Caesar, tore away the bars from the grave, and threw the machinery of death into reverse, if He destroyed principalities and powers, triumphing over them in the victory of the Easter Tomb, then I ask you – can He build, sustain, prosper and keep His church in the twenty-first century?

He said “I will. . .” He did not say “I Hope” to build. He began that construction by His own death on the cross. He arose from the dead, ascended into heaven, poured out His Holy Spirit among those who would believe; He possessed them, activated them, motivated them and sent them into the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the good news of salvation in His Name and in so doing, Jesus established His church in every corner of the globe where man is found.

The great question being asked around the world as I write this is “what shape, what form, what structure will the church have? . . . .Spiritual Israel understood that God would send a Messiah, a mighty Deliverer, a Savior. But what would He look like? What would He sound like? How would He dress? From whence would He come? . . . . Nobody had the answer. Nobody could see clearly the form God’s deliverance would take.

So when I speak of or represent “Emerging Church” I’m not talking about a departure from classical, biblical, evangelical thought or doctrine. I’m talking about a departure from the religious traditions that man has laid on the skeleton of the church to create (in some instances) the monster of religion that looms in our current society.

To me, “Emerging Church” is simply “Authentic Church.” It’s the Church of Jesus Christ and of the Apostles. It’s the true and straightforward appearance of the Body of Christ in the earth, on a mission to bring the earth to faith in Jesus.

2) I’m not interested in either “Contemplative Spirituality” or “...labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering and contemplative prayer...” I’m interested in knowing Him (Jesus) “in the power of His resurrection and in the fellowship of His suffering.”

3) I don’t like the tone of those who seem to want to attack anybody they don’t like. I never read about Jesus attacking anybody. Oh, He identified people according to their spirits, but He never lashed out, attacked or accused anybody. He loved even His enemies and His opponents and would have gladly forgiven them their sins and befriended them if only they would have allowed Him to do so. Oh, I want to be like Jesus.

I'd prefer to measure Emerging Church theology, practice and understanding against the Scriptures rather than against contemporary detractors and antagonists.

So who are we, the people of g2k? Who am I? We are seekers of genuine, authentic, true New Testament, even “primitive” Christianity. We want to know the God of the Bible through His Son by the power of His Spirit. We want to worship in “spirit and in truth” and we’ve discovered that so much of what passes for Christianity is in reality a deviation from the original truths given us by Jesus and by the Apostles. We reject this man-made stuff with all the vigor and strength we possess.

We aren’t followers of Saddleback or Willow Creek or Brian McClaren or The Ooze or any other label, group, element or sect. We are followers of Jesus.

1 posted on 08/28/2005 12:27:17 PM PDT by Quix
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To: Quix

I didn't read this.


2 posted on 08/28/2005 12:28:44 PM PDT by atomicpossum (Replies should be as pedantic as possible. I love that so much.)
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To: atomicpossum
I didn't read this.

Good decision.

3 posted on 08/28/2005 12:32:12 PM PDT by M. Thatcher
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To: atomicpossum

Ditto. Too much..


4 posted on 08/28/2005 12:33:43 PM PDT by DefiantZERO
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To: M. Thatcher

Based on what?

How many lines of it did you read to arrive at your conclusion?


5 posted on 08/28/2005 12:36:06 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Quix

Unfortunately, I read most of it.


6 posted on 08/28/2005 12:38:30 PM PDT by M. Thatcher
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To: Quix

Well written, but very very long.


7 posted on 08/28/2005 12:39:29 PM PDT by TheSpottedOwl ("President Bush, start building that wall"!)
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To: M. Thatcher

So what was your major beef with it?


8 posted on 08/28/2005 12:43:11 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: TheSpottedOwl

I agree on both counts.

I can sure identify with a lot of his observations and feelings.

I think he's quite right on in a large number of places.

Thanks much.


9 posted on 08/28/2005 12:43:59 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Quix

Major ego. Unbelievable preponderance of "I" and "me." He is totally full of himself - and full of it.


10 posted on 08/28/2005 12:46:18 PM PDT by M. Thatcher
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To: Quix
I started reading for a little while . I was hoping for "X stinks because of Y" somewhere but only saw BLAH BLAH BLAH. (Is that so hard? I got my point across in only four sentences!)
11 posted on 08/28/2005 12:48:01 PM PDT by Nateman
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To: M. Thatcher

Perhaps we read different articles.

I don't know how he could have told a personal narrative story of his very personal journey and used "I" less. Perhaps you have a clever way of doing that and it being smooth and readable.

Full of it? On what grounds? I find him quite discerning and edifying.

Did he jangle your biases too much?


12 posted on 08/28/2005 12:54:02 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Quix
Anything worth saying, is worth saying succinctly !
13 posted on 08/28/2005 12:54:46 PM PDT by Red Boots
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To: Nateman

So,

did you disagree with the excerpts in my COMMENTARY section below the doc?


14 posted on 08/28/2005 12:54:49 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Quix
Thank you for posting this long, but powerful and personal statement. I wasn't going to read something this long. But it hooked me in to the end.

Congressman Billybob

Latest column: "NY Post: Better a Bad Story than None as All (Able Danger)"

15 posted on 08/28/2005 12:55:21 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (I'm on the road, now. Contact me at John_Armor@aya.edu.net.)
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To: Red Boots

There's some truth to that.

However, at times, I value traveling a long distance with a brother down the same path just to experience their path and them.

I felt that way about this long narrative and I suspected that's the attitude and feeling he wrote it in. I think it was written primarily or only for those interested, ready, able to share such a path in reading it.

Clearly, you weren't.


16 posted on 08/28/2005 12:57:20 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Congressman Billybob

AM SUPER BLESSED by your bothering and your comment. Thanks. And thanks for the link.

BTW, I would be keenly interested in any of your responses to any of the 27 sources and/or points in this long compilation of prophetic excerpts from 1940 to present at:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1472056/posts?page=16#16


17 posted on 08/28/2005 12:59:21 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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To: Quix
Do you agree...

No opinion one way or the other, don't know enough about it.

18 posted on 08/28/2005 1:00:31 PM PDT by Nateman
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To: Quix

Very good...LONG, but good!

Maybe if you quarter it and serve it up for the next 4 Sundays?


19 posted on 08/28/2005 1:02:25 PM PDT by loboinok (Gun Control is hitting what you aim at!)
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To: Nateman

First you said:

I started reading for a little while . I was hoping for "X stinks because of Y" somewhere but only saw BLAH BLAH BLAH. (Is that so hard? I got my point across in only four sentences!)




Then you said:

Qx:Do you agree...

No opinion one way or the other, don't know enough about it.




Odd that first your chide because of lack of brevity and then you cop-out because of not enough info.

. . . regarding the following excerpts.

I love this line:
The truth is only Jesus is capable of building what only heaven understands.

AND:

He further stated, “I will build My church.” It is His church, expressly, completely, totally, and exclusively. The church does not belong to the Roman Catholics, the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Assemblies of God, the Lutherans or any other body, group, denomination or faction. It is His church. He constructed it and paid the mortgage for it with His own, divine blood.

Think logically with me: If He built a mighty nation of two million from 70 paltry outcasts under the eyes of Pharaoh in Egypt; If He stacked the waters of the Red Sea in a heap and made a highway for every Israeli foot to pass across on dry ground; If He could produce water from a rock to quench thirsty throats and send manna from heaven to feed hungry bellies, if He healed the blind, cast out devils, called Lazarus to life from the dead; if He defied the royal seal of Caesar, tore away the bars from the grave, and threw the machinery of death into reverse, if He destroyed principalities and powers, triumphing over them in the victory of the Easter Tomb, then I ask you – can He build, sustain, prosper and keep His church in the twenty-first century?

He said “I will. . .” He did not say “I Hope” to build. He began that construction by His own death on the cross. He arose from the dead, ascended into heaven, poured out His Holy Spirit among those who would believe; He possessed them, activated them, motivated them and sent them into the uttermost parts of the earth to preach the good news of salvation in His Name and in so doing, Jesus established His church in every corner of the globe where man is found.

The great question being asked around the world as I write this is “what shape, what form, what structure will the church have? . . . .Spiritual Israel understood that God would send a Messiah, a mighty Deliverer, a Savior. But what would He look like? What would He sound like? How would He dress? From whence would He come? . . . . Nobody had the answer. Nobody could see clearly the form God’s deliverance would take.

So when I speak of or represent “Emerging Church” I’m not talking about a departure from classical, biblical, evangelical thought or doctrine. I’m talking about a departure from the religious traditions that man has laid on the skeleton of the church to create (in some instances) the monster of religion that looms in our current society.

To me, “Emerging Church” is simply “Authentic Church.” It’s the Church of Jesus Christ and of the Apostles. It’s the true and straightforward appearance of the Body of Christ in the earth, on a mission to bring the earth to faith in Jesus.


2) I’m not interested in either “Contemplative Spirituality” or “...labyrinths, icons, incense, chanting, candles, centering and contemplative prayer...” I’m interested in knowing Him (Jesus) “in the power of His resurrection and in the fellowship of His suffering.”

3) I don’t like the tone of those who seem to want to attack anybody they don’t like. I never read about Jesus attacking anybody. Oh, He identified people according to their spirits, but He never lashed out, attacked or accused anybody. He loved even His enemies and His opponents and would have gladly forgiven them their sins and befriended them if only they would have allowed Him to do so. Oh, I want to be like Jesus.

I'd prefer to measure Emerging Church theology, practice and understanding against the Scriptures rather than against contemporary detractors and antagonists.


So who are we, the people of g2k? Who am I? We are seekers of genuine, authentic, true New Testament, even “primitive” Christianity. We want to know the God of the Bible through His Son by the power of His Spirit. We want to worship in “spirit and in truth” and we’ve discovered that so much of what passes for Christianity is in reality a deviation from the original truths given us by Jesus and by the Apostles. We reject this man-made stuff with all the vigor and strength we possess.

We aren’t followers of Saddleback or Willow Creek or Brian McClaren or The Ooze or any other label, group, element or sect. We are followers of Jesus.


20 posted on 08/28/2005 1:04:58 PM PDT by Quix (TIMES R A CHANGING! THE BIBLE GIVES THE OUTLINE AHEAD PRAY, PREPARE)
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