Bishop says fleeing Anglicans must join church for positive reasons

Catholic News Service ^ | 7/12/2005 | Simon Caldwell

[sionnsar]

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Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

[hispanichoosier]

"Those Anglican priests who were received into the church were received for positive reasons -- for example, that they accepted the teaching authority of the church," he said.

Limited props to this bishop. I hope he isn't intending to discourage orthodox Anglicans' re-union with Rome. I do agree, however, that the Church should ensure that those Anglicans who decide to rejoin Rome are in agreement with respect to papal supremacy.

[Honorary Serb]

"The Church of England, catholic and reformed, has before acted prophetically for the wider church: The vernacular liturgy, married clergy, have all been pioneered by our church....

Yeah, right! What about the Orthodox Church?

These deluded revisionists need to lose their "enthusiast" nonsense about being "prophetic" and "pioneering", and get back to orthodox catholic bedrock truth!!!!

[BelegStrongbow]

I sympathize. Neither of the cases cited is in fact an innovation by the English church but were restorations of conditions prior to late Medieval Roman decisions. That is, Innocent (III?) declared that the Western clergy must in all cases be celibate. That was not the universal case before his day. As for the vernacular, well, Latin WAS the vernacular when the Mass was developed.

In Christ,
Deacon Paul+

[MadIvan]

Bish, me old mate, as a British Catholic, I'm not complaining.

Regards, Ivan

[livius]

I certainly think Anglicans have to be in agreement on fundamental principles, but this "they can't leave just because their church has become even more heretical" argument has been used by Modernist Catholic bishops for years to keep out Anglicans. They know that entering Anglicans will be conservative, and frankly, they just don't want them.

Here's hoping BXVI cleans out the bishop's palaces of the world, because it is the bishops who have single handedly imposed unacceptable changes, blocked the reform of Vatican II, and protected every raving queen among them and are directly responsible for the fact that there are virtually no ordinations in Western countries. The priest is essentially the delegate of the bishop, who is appointed by the Pope to be the head of that Christian community - but who among us would want to be the delegate of the average US or European bishop??? (Hint: Only the raving queens who couldn't get a job at Starbucks because they don't like to get up that early. And their customer service attitude stinks, so they wouldn't make much in tips.)

[bboop]

I think he is wrong. There are many reasons to flee to Rome. The RC Church gives you an entire year of RCIA to grapple with your decision. It's not his call to examine reasons -- if the Lord calls you, you go.

[Tantumergo]

"but this "they can't leave just because their church has become even more heretical" argument has been used by Modernist Catholic bishops for years to keep out Anglicans."

I wouldn't call Declan a "Modernist Catholic Bishop" simply for the reason that he is not a Catholic. He is well known as being among the most liberal of bishops who opened his Cathedral and hosted a "Wimmin's Ordination Conference" where he presided alongside a female Lutheran "bishop".

He doesn't want any of these Anglicans converting because he is fully behind the ordination of wimmin in the Catholic Church. His was another class appointment of the last pontificate which encouraged at least one priest I know of to join the SSPX.

[hispanichoosier]

They know that entering Anglicans will be conservative, and frankly, they just don't want them.

I disagree with your observation that "entering Anglicans will be conservative." True, some will. However, the entering Anglicans remained Anglicans until now and did not seek union with Rome when the Church of England authorized female ordination in '92. They didn't cross the Tiber in 1991 after the House of Bishops approved Issues in Human Sexuality, a report in which the Bishops accepted "committed and permanent" homosexual relationships for the laity. If these two issues--particularly Issues in Human Sexuality--did not lead an Anglican to leave, then why are they leaving now that women are being made bishops? I think that some sort of inquiry must be made before their situation is normalized vis-a-vis Rome.

[Agrarian]

I remember reading the Crockford's File, where William Oddie wrote some very insightful things about Orthodoxy, especially in the context of a trip he made to Greece.

I met Oddie at a meeting in the late 80's -- fascinating guy. It was clear that he was leaning toward Rome. I find it interesting that Oddie would be talking about a parallel "Anglo-Catholic" jurisdiction in England under Rome even today. One wonders what the point would be, and why B16 would be sympathetic to the idea...

Would it be temporary or permanent? Would "regular" Catholics and "Anglo-Catholics" be allowed to go back and forth freely between the "rites?" All very interesting.

[NYer]

"But there is an understanding that you don't come into the Catholic Church for a negative reason.

Thanks for the ping, sionnsar!

The bishop makes an excellent point and one that has concerned the church as it witnesses the flood of emigrants paddling across the Tiber. This must be a choice based on agreement with catholic catechesis, not on the ordination of women to bishop.

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[Siobhan]

Declan's a heretic and always has been! He wants female ordination in the Roman Catholic Church, and the last thing on earth he wants are conservative Anglicans coming into the Catholic Church.

Declan isn't even a Catholic any more. He's an evil heretic! Is anyone listening?

Siobhan, in full banshee mode

[sionnsar]

O tha, Siobhan ban-síth!

[InterestedQuestioner]

As far as I'm concerned, the Anglicans can't get here soon enough.

[InterestedQuestioner]

As far as I'm concerned, the Anglicans can't get here soon enough.

[Salvation]

Positive reasons give someone something to build on rather than to be filled with spite and hate. Must agree with the bishop.

[Desdemona]

Declan isn't even a Catholic any more. He's an evil heretic! Is anyone listening?

Yes, dearie, we hear you loud and clear.

[InterestedQuestioner]

Salvation, I agree with you about the importance of being positive, but I don't think we can assume that the Anglicans are full of spite and hate. I think the separation from Rome has always been an artificial one, and I think that many Anglicans have been put into a very bewildering position with the changes taking place in the Anglican Communion. I think they have the same right to be in the Catholic Church as I do, and I would rather see a bishop welcoming people.


As I understand it, Anglicans would likely go through a year long RCIA class, and it will take positive reasons for people to maintain the commitment to doing that.

It seems to me that a lot of Anglicans have done a much better job of being Christian and working to maintain principles in the face of adversity than I have.

[marshmallow]

"Those Anglican priests who were received into the church were received for positive reasons -- for example, that they accepted the teaching authority of the church," he said.

Right. Like everyone who presently calls themselves a cradle "Catholic" accepts the teaching authority of the Church. How about applying this standard to everyone within the Catholic Church, not just the new entrants? I'll accept these converts any day over some of the homegrown malcontents and heretics who presently infest the Catholic Church.

Maybe we could do a trade.

We'll take all of the Anglicans who've had it wiv wimin in clerical dress and in return, we'll ship them as many of our own pro-wimin's ordination, pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality AmChurch whackos, as they want.

This is what I call real ecumenism.

All those men and women of good will who desire sound doctrine and wish to submit themselves to the Vicar of Christ will thus end up in one place and those who prefer a do-it-yourself approach to Christianity will likewise be happy in their own lunatic asylum.

It sounds like the Anglicans are getting ready to swim the Tiber. All we need to do now is to convince the likes of Card. Mahony to officially leave and swim in the opposite direction and everyone should be happy.