Posted on 03/13/2005 7:16:00 PM PST by churchillbuff
....In a shift whose ideological breadth is unusual in the fragmented Protestant world, a long-standing wall around Mary appears to be eroding. It is not that Protestants are converting to Catholicism's dramatic exaltation: the singing of Salve Regina, the Rosary's Marian Mysteries, the entreaty to her in the Hail Mary to "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Rather, a growing number of Christian thinkers who are neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox (another branch of faith to which Mary is central) have concluded that their various traditions have shortchanged her in the very arena in which Protestantism most prides itself: the careful and full reading of Scripture.
Arguments on the Virgin's behalf have appeared in a flurry of scholarly essays and popular articles, on the covers of the usually conservative Christianity Today (headline: The Blessed Evangelical Mary) and the usually liberal Christian Century (St. Mary for protestants). They are being preached, if not yet in many churches then in a denominational cross section—and not just at modest addresses like Maguire's in Xenia but also from mighty pulpits like that at Chicago's Fourth Presbyterian Church, where longtime senior pastor John Buchanan recently delivered a major message on the Virgin ending with the words "Hail Mary ... Blessed are you among us all."
This could probably not have happened at some other time. Robert Jenson, author of the respected text Systematic Theology, chuckles when asked whether the pastor of his Lutheran youth would have approved of his (fairly extreme) position that Protestants, like Catholics, should pray for Mary's intercession. "My pastor would have been horrified," he says, adding, "The pastor was my father." Yet today Catholics and Protestants feel freer to explore each other's beliefs and practices. Feminism has encouraged popular speculations on the lives of female biblical figures and the role of the divine feminine (think The Red Tent and The Da Vinci Code). A growing interest, on both the Protestant right and left, in practices and texts from Christianity's first 1,500 years has led to immersion in the habitual Marianism of the early and medieval church. And the influx of millions of Hispanic immigrants from Catholic cultures into American Protestantism may eventually accelerate progress toward a pro-Marian tipping point—on whose other side may lie changes not just in sermon topic but in liturgy, personal piety and a re-evaluation of the actual messages of the Reformation.
The movement is not yet prevalent in the pews. And it has its critics. While granting that Mary shows up more in the New Testament than some churches recognize, Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Southern Seminary, charges that those who use her full record to justify new "theological constructions" around her are guilty of "overreaching," "wishful thinking" and effectively "flirting with Catholic devotion." Yet Lutheran theologian Carl Braaten, co-editor of an essay collection on what might be called Marian upgrade, claims, "We don't have to go back to Catholicism. We can go back to our own roots and sources. It could be done without shocking the congregation. I can't predict how exactly it will happen. Some of it will be good, and some of it may be bad.
But I think it's going to happen." .....
Wow no replies so far.
"The Bible itself alludes to a comparison between the Ark in the OT and the "Ark" in the NT, Mary."
It never ceases to amaze me, the Catholic stance of not regarding parts of the NT, but picking and choosing portions to make a doctrine.
"This is most explicit at the end of Revelation 11 into 12. Remember, there were no chapter separation when Revelation was written."
There was no chapter separation, but there was, and still is topic change.
Rev. chp.11, I believe the ark in heaven is the same ark that was the example that the Lord told Moses to copy. See Heb. 8:5 "...example and shadow of heavenly things..."
Rev. chp.12, This is plainly a condensed history of the 12 Hebrew tribes (12 stars).
The NT ark is the church of Jesus Christ. See 1 Peter 3:20,21.
If you missed them, please check my comments #93,135,& 137.
I intended to get a good nights sleep, and hit the road for a few days. But I just couldn't resist taking a peek at this thread before leaving. Bye all, have a good week.
Your statement is 100% accurate from the Catholic perspective. It's a matter of when Mary was saved that is the matter of dispute. Catholics believe that since the merits of Jesus' Life, Passion, Death, and Resurrection are eternal (those who were who rose from the dead after Jesus' Death, for example), that God, in His generosity, and since Mary is the daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse of the Holy Ghost, that He applied these merits which were to take place in the future in a temporal manner, but were eternal in a spiritual manner, to Mary, to spare her from the stain of original sin at her conception, therefore, saving her in a more perfect manner than most humans.
To the disciple, He said, Behold your Mother - Pope John Paul II
The universal motherhood of Mary, the "Woman" of the wedding at Cana and of Calvary, recalls Eve, "mother of all living" (Gn 3:20). However, while the latter helped to bring sin into the world, the new Eve, Mary, co-operates in the saving event of Redemption. Thus in the Blessed Virgin the figure of "woman" is rehabilitated and her motherhood takes up the task of spreading the new life in Christ among men.
I've never heard that or anything close to it. The only thing I'd ever heard about the co-Redemptrix thing is from flaming liberal Catholics who are CINOs anyway and fundamentalists while reciting their misinformation.
I have always been bothered by that phrase...God exhisted quite some time before Mary was born...Therefore,it's impossible that Mary is the mother of God...
Mary 'is' the mother of the human baby, Jesus...Mary was the mother of Jesus, the prophet...Jesus/God was not born of Mary...Jesus/God has always been...Jesus/man was born of mary...Jesus/King/God will show up soon and He will be in appearance as He really is...And I doubt he will have long blond hair and a trimmed beard...
Seems this Mother of God thing is too close to the old Isis, Osirus story where the mother (queen of heaven) married the king and later she married her own son (wasn't he the Sun God?)...And to this day, you see the Catholic representations of Mary with a glowing sun around her head...
It says all generations will call her blessed. You do that, right?
For most of them, that is what they were. I think one guy is following the anti pope in Spain (forgot his name) who says Mary's body and blood is in the Eucharist also. However, Malachi Martin was also pushing for co Redemptrix.
If you deny that she is the Mother of God, then you deny Jesus' divinity. The "Mother of God" title (Theotokos), rather than a device to glorify Mary, was orginally really a way of defending against the Arian heresy.
Obviously, God has no beginning and no end, so He existed before He was born of woman. That does not take away from the very real fact that He chose to be born of Mary.
"It never ceases to amaze me, the Catholic stance of not regarding parts of the NT, but picking and choosing portions to make a doctrine."
Explain your amazement, please.
"There was no chapter separation, but there was, and still is topic change."
Says you. The earliest Christians reading it didn't see it that way.
"The NT ark is the church of Jesus Christ. See 1 Peter 3:20,21."
It's not an EITHER/OR, but a BOTH/AND. Mary is referred to as a sign of the Church. She is our spiritual mother, as is the Church (via Baptism, Peter speaks a lot about Baptism in 1 Peter). The Bible does not have ONLY one meaning in a given verse. There are often several meanings within a verse, such as the literal meaning, and a metaphorical meaning. So Peter is correct, but so is the understanding that Mary is a representative of the Church.
Rev 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne" Can we not say this refers to Israel AND Mary? You would be hard pressed to say no.
Regards
8. In the Church, the priest, alter Christus [another Christ], is the minister of the essential salvific actions. ... With Mary, Mother of the Eternal High Priest, the priest is aware that, with her, he is "an instrument of salvific communication between God and man", ...
c). The specific journey to holiness
13. ... the Blessed Virgin Mary, united with the Redeemer, comes to our assistance because ‘‘when we celebrate the Holy Mass, the Mother of the Son of God is in our midst and introduces us to the mystery of His redemptive sacrifice. Thus, she is the mediatrix of all the grace flowing from this sacrifice to the Church and to all the faithful.’’
While not ex-cathedra declarations in themselves, these clearly show that Pope John Paul II presents Mary as a Co-redemptrix or Mediatrix who allegedly assists in everyone's salvation.
Quite fascinating...I am quite convinced however, that if anyone is counting on getting to heaven by any other means than Jesus Christ, you can forget it...I don't care if the Pope or George Bush says it...I wouldn't waste a minute trying to go through Mary or anyone else...I'd go straight to the 'source'...He says "call on His name" and you will be saved...Simple as that..And not only is it that simple, that is the 'only' way to salvation...
"I have been told by a number of Catholics that I am going to hell because I don't pray to Mary, and that Jesus won't save those who haven't come through Mary to Him."
Either you misunderstood or they don't know what they're talking about. No one but God knows the state of anyone's soul, so we are not in a position to judge where someone else is going, let alone ourselves...
Regards
"that if anyone is counting on getting to heaven by any other means than Jesus Christ, you can forget it..."
The Church doesn't teach that. As a matter of fact, the Church recently released a document that re-affirms that position that only through Jesus Christ is one saved.
Dominus Iesus
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3022
Document issued on September 5, 2000, by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The document concerns "the uniqueness and universality of salvation through Jesus Christ and the Church."
Regards
Your post 168 says it all. Thanks.
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