METHODIST CHURCH DISPLAYS VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE

Spirit Daily ^ | December 12, 2004 | Mike Brown

[NYer]

The Chicago Tribune reports that when some members of Amor de Dios United Methodist Church in an area called Little Village elected to move a statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe into the sanctuary last year, "the icon spawned an exodus."

Turned off by the introduction of a Roman Catholic tradition to a Protestant congregation, most of the church's 15 founding parishioners drifted away. To them, venerating the Virgin Mary and reciting the rosary did not belong in a Methodist church.

But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry. Pastors of other Hispanic Methodist congregations objected too. Meanwhile, and curiously,

Roman Catholics in the neighborhood fret that the church might be selling itself as something it was not.

"Rev. Jose Landaverde allowed the statue to stay," reports the newspaper. "He says he sees no harm in embracing a tradition--the Virgin is an unofficial national symbol of Mexico--that might bring people closer to God. 'It's coming from the people, which is the real presence of the Holy Spirit,' said Landaverde, 31, a student pastor from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary. 'You cannot bring theological debates to the people when they need spiritual assistance.'"

The Tribune reports that this month, parishioners celebrated their first novena in honor of the Virgin of Guadalupe by parading the two-foot-high statue around the neighborhood, singing songs and reciting the rosary. "About two dozen parishioners weathered the chill each night to deliver the statue to a different living room, where it was surrounded by garland, twinkling lights, roses and poinsettias. On Sunday, parishioners will commence the traditional Feast Day for the Virgin of Guadalupe and, through prayers, mariachi music, drama and dancing, pay homage. 'The Virgin understands our suffering and she accompanies us everywhere we go,' said church member Oscar Hernandez, who grew up Roman Catholic in El Salvador but now considers himself a Methodist. 'We don't want to take away the faith that this community has, but we want to nourish it.'"

The parish council discerned that something was missing--the Virgin of Guadalupe.

"Since I was little, it's always been right to have the Virgin Mary in the church," said Olivia Serrato, 40, one of the original parishioners who decided to stay after the Virgin was introduced. "It's now a great honor to bring the Virgin Mary to my Methodist church. Before I didn't feel complete."
 

[Celtman]

"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body."

      I must point out that these words have rather different meaning to Christians of non Roman churches, than they apparently do to those of the Roman faith.  In the Biblical view, all Christians are saints, while they are alive - not just a few given the title after they are dead.  The communion of the saints then refers simply to the fellowship of living believers.  As for the holy catholic church, it is simply the universal ecclesia - the corporate, invisible, body of those who are called out by the Holy Ghost.  Again, in the non Roman/Orthodox view, the meaning of the word catholic was mangled when the established church was started in the fourth century by a still pagan emperor.  And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

[NYer]

non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

Jn 6:51

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.

Jn 6:53

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Jn 6:54

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.

Jn 6:55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Jn 6:56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

Jn 6:60,66

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

[AnAmericanMother]

. . . and speaking of Our Lady of Guadalupe . . .

I was at a dog trial this weekend, sponsored by our local agility club so I attended both days.

I used the wonderful resource MassTimes.org to find a nearby church so I wouldn't miss Mass. Found a church less than two miles away from the trial venue . . . and they had a 7:30 a.m. Mass! Great, I thought . . . I'll hit the "quickie" Mass and be in and out in time for the first Sunday. Famous last words . . .

I show up and the place is JAMMED . . . I mean cars are streaming in and out, the parking lot is full . . . find a spot in a distant corner and head down to the church. I hear drums . . . The courtyard between the church and parish hall is full of people, and in the middle are a bunch of people in elaborate feather costumes with headdresses, beating drums and playing flutes.

It's a Hispanic parish, and they're finishing up an all-night Vigil in honor of the Virgin de Guadalupe, and it's a full Festival Mass with all the trimmings (including a gorgeous larger-than-life-size statue of the Virgin as she appeared to Juan Diego.)

In for a penny - in for a pound - fortunately I hit the English Mass and not the Spanish one. And I only missed one class. And my dog got three qualifying scores. :-D

[AnAmericanMother]

Don't they still have Guy Fawkes Day?

Actually they don't. The old prayers specifically for Guy Fawkes day have been removed from the prayerbook. They were pretty pointedly anti-Catholic, and since the Oxford Movement there has been a strong group in the Anglican Church seeking, if not reunion with Rome, at least a thawing of relations.

Funny thing . . . as a former Anglican I still am settling in to my new Catholic parish (haven't even been there a year yet). We were in choir practice, and somebody mentioned Guy Fawkes day. I looked up and grinned and said, "Hey! I get to cheer for the other side now!" About half the folks in the room knew what I was talking about and laughed -- the other half are like, "these nutty Episcopalians, what is she talking about?"

[TNMountainMan]

"These folks are obviously still clinging to their Catholic roots. They need to find a Roman Catholic parish to join. They are not theologically Protestant, why are they going to a Methodist church?"

checkout

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/respub/Summer2003.html

"In this much to be desired exchange of valuables, Methodists might consider taking the Rosary into their system. Not many know that John Wesley himself used the rosary, and the one he used is at present among the archives of The Leys School, Cambridge."

Maybe they are closer to Methodist roots than you think.

[NYer]

Lot's of Latin Rite Catholics running east to avoid the liturgical abuses under which we suffer.

Excellent point; it was my reason for looking 'east'. The Catholic Church is both Western and Eastern. Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15). Pope John Paul II said that "the Catholic Church is both Eastern and Western."

As most of us realize, the Church began in the East. Our Lord lived and died and resurrected in the Holy Land. The Church spread from Jerusalem throughout the known world. As the Church spread, it encountered different cultures and adapted, retaining from each culture what was consistent with the Gospel. In the city of Alexandria, the Church became very Egyptian; in Antioch it remained very Jewish; in Rome it took on an Italian appearance and in the Constantinople it took on the trappings of the Roman imperial court. All the churches which developed this way were Eastern, except Rome. Most Catholics in the United States have their roots in Western Europe where the Roman rite predominated. It has been said that the Eastern Catholic Churches are "the best kept secret in the Catholic Church."

Several of us in the forum are Roman Catholics who have chosen to celebrate the Divine Liturgy at an Eastern Catholic Church. You can learn more about the different liturgies at this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

To locate an Eastern Catholic Church in your community, go here:

Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S.

Should you decide to 'test the waters', learn as much as possible ahead of time, about how that particular liturgy is celebrated so you won't feel awkward. For example, in the Western traditions, genuflection is considered the proper form of respect. In the Eastern traditions, it is the profound bow. We bow towards the Tabernacle, at the Trisagion prayer, we bow our heads during the Consecration and we bow after receiving communion. Most important, however, we must recognize that liturgy is the prime way through which the Eastern Traditions "do catechesis," that is, teach the Faith.

Communion is by intinction - the priest dips the consecrated host into the Precious Blood and then places it on the tongue of the communicant. There is no communion in the hand and no EEMs.

It is also a common practice in the Eastern Churches to join together as a community, after the Divine Liturgy. Refreshments are served and the community gathers for conversation. We become an extended family to each other. The priest makes a point of circulating among his parishioners, just like a loving father does with his family.

We also come together for various events throughout the year - cleaning the church, preparing for festivals, making pilgrimages.

And, if you go, plan on attending the Divine Liturgy at least 3 times. Though 'prepared', my first experience was filled with distractions (when to stand, sit, etc.), the 2nd visit was an adjustment to the chanted responses; by the 3rd visit, I felt more comfortable and could now participate at the liturgy. By the 3rd visit, children were waving and adults were smiling, acknowledging me as a 'member' of their community. I was home!

[kittymyrib]

Praying to Mary is not a Lutheran tradition.

[Aquinasfan]

Don't Lutherans still retain some Catholic traditions that carried over after the Reformation?

I hear that some pray the rosary.

Doctrine has also converged a little bit, most notably with the Joint Declaration on Justification signed a few years ago.

[Aquinasfan]

Still involves rosaries

Veneration of the image on the tilma doesn't require the recitation of the rosary.

You might want to do some googling on the image and the scientific analysis surrounding its origin. The image is clearly miraculous in origin. Since the image was instrumental in the conversion of the native Americans and their barbaric religious practices, it could not be the work of the devil.

[Aquinasfan]

the elevation of Mary rather than Jesus.

Jesus merits worship. Mary merits veneration.

Mary said, “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:47-48)

[redgolum]

This might help.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html

There is a Lutheran Rosary, though it doesn't have all of the Marian devotions. The question of the Immaculate conception, continual virginity, ect. are generally regarded as traditions, but not dogmas.

[Aquinasfan]

English is such a lousy language for religion.

Another example is the problematic word, pray. Years ago, the word pray meant "to ask." Now it connotes worship as much as anything.

When Catholics say, "we pray to the saints," what we are saying is that we are asking the saints to pray for us, "to ask God" for us, just as we ask fellow Christians "to ask God for us" here below.

[Aquinasfan]

What I will say is that Methodist's pray directly to Jesus who is God's only son and is both human and God. We do not ask anyone else to do that praying.(we have a direct line)

Have you ever asked a Methodist to pray for you?

If that's OK, why not ask the saints in heaven to pray for you too? After all, they're more alive than we are.

[Aquinasfan]

Well, of course, there's all that Mother of God business,

Jesus is God. Mary is His mother.

[Aquinasfan]

the saints remain dead in the ground

Revelation 5:8

the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Hebrews 12:1

". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ."

[Aquinasfan]

And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

[conservonator]

But this is part of a trend nationwide: mainline Protestant churches and even some evangelical ones (in places like California, with a strong Mexican populace) are accepting the veneration of statues, which for decades has been misinterpreted as idolatry.

Veneration of statues? What kind of nut would venerate a chunk of plaster? Sloppy or deliberate wording by the author.

[Cold Heat]

Have you ever asked a Methodist to pray for you?

Actually, No.

I have never asked anyone to pray for me, as I have never asked anyone for a gift. (except as a child from Santa)

While I appreciate the furtherance of my understanding of the Saint and the act of veneration, my religious training and my understanding of the afterlife and God preclude me from this concept.

I would hope that all Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans along with others who speak to or with Saints and inanimate objects would also accept that I do not and cannot. And that I view it as a unnecessary complication at the very least.

I do not, and should not even say what images it brings to my minds eye when I think about it.

But, at least I have improved my sense of understanding regarding this issue. I would hope the feeling is mutual.

[muawiyah]

We once visited with some close friends as they dedicated their new home. This started with the traditional burnt offerings to the gods, followed by various participatory "hearth and home" ceremonies, and so forth.

My wife is from a much more "open" background (they have Buddhists in the family), and mine is good old fashioned, cut and dried, Christian Church ~ so she joined in with our friends (to a degree), and I stood at the back of the room with the Moslems!

"In that day they will not do the burnt offering...." ~~ and that's after the Messiah comes.

I've often wondered if a Jew had been present if he'd participated in the burnt offering, or join the hard-core Christian "fundies" and the Moslems at the back of the room. Any guesses?

(NOTE: It's the same burnt offering made for the same purposes as in the good old days ~ here a banana became the substitute sacrifice ~ a really good banana too, selected from a select position on a large bunch ~ a regular ol' "first fruits" type of fruit).