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To: tiki
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection of the body."

      I must point out that these words have rather different meaning to Christians of non Roman churches, than they apparently do to those of the Roman faith.  In the Biblical view, all Christians are saints, while they are alive - not just a few given the title after they are dead.  The communion of the saints then refers simply to the fellowship of living believers.  As for the holy catholic church, it is simply the universal ecclesia - the corporate, invisible, body of those who are called out by the Holy Ghost.  Again, in the non Roman/Orthodox view, the meaning of the word catholic was mangled when the established church was started in the fourth century by a still pagan emperor.  And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.
81 posted on 12/12/2004 9:01:47 PM PST by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: Celtman; tiki
non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

Catholic Christian belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist rests upon the literal meaning of the words of the Last Supper as recorded by the Evangelists and Paul.

The uniformity of expression across the first four authors affirms the literalness. Belief in the real presence demands faith--the basis of new life as called for by Christ throughout scripture. But faith in signs conferring what they signify is the basis also for the Incarnation--appearances belying true meaning. The true significance of the real presence is sealed in John's gospel. Five times in different expressions, Jesus confirmed the reality of what he means.

Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

The best way a person can make a clear literal point is repetition of the same message in different ways. Jesus did this. Those around him clearly understood what he was saying--cannibalism and the drinking of blood--both forbidden by Mosaic Law.

Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Had these disciples mistaken the meaning of Jesus' words, Jesus would surely have known and corrected them. He didn't. They had clearly understood his meaning--Jesus' flesh was to be really eaten; his blood to be really drunk.

83 posted on 12/13/2004 3:17:32 AM PST by NYer ("Blessed be He who by His love has given life to all." - final prayer of St. Charbel)
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To: Celtman
And, yes, non Roman churches do have Communion services, but these are completely devoid of the heretical idea of a sacrificial mass.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.


97 posted on 12/13/2004 6:25:19 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Celtman

In the words of McLaughlin: WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


106 posted on 12/13/2004 2:29:58 PM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
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