PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES [A good summary of SOME key evidences--QX]

CONTENDER MINISTRIES ^ | 11 JUL 2004 | JENNIFER RAST

[Quix]

Thanks.

[Quix]

FOR SURE!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Perhaps you and Angel-Gal could decide which passages from the best Enoch version whould be likely to be most edifying, informative to post on this thread about such topics.

The problem with Enoch is that its antiquity can be proven – a copy found in the Dead Sea Scrolls was carbon dated to approximately 200 B.C.. Jude quoted it as Scripture. There are about 100 phrasings in the New Testament that appear rooted from Enoch.

The Jews however did not accept Enoch as part of their “canon” because it referred to Christ. And the Christian canon did not accept it because it was not part of the Jewish canon. (How bizarre, btw.) Some notable fathers of the Church protested, including Justin Martyr.

The bottom line is that the book of Enoch was kept, copied and perhaps altered by believers in diverse locations. And because the Enoch in the DSS is a copy – and fragmented at that – we are not assured that it is faithfully reproduced. With the Torah, the copies had to be so faithfully reproduced that even the slightest error caused the entire copy to be destroyed.

If all of this were not enough, the “New Age” believers have embraced the book of Enoch. And much of what you find on the Internet is some copy interpreted in some way by them.

IMHO, we must defer to the most recent and most scholarly translation available which is the one in Charlesworth’s Pseudepigrapha.

1 Enoch was translated from examining a 15th century Ethiopian manuscript comparing it with a late 18th century Ethiopian manuscript and the text of R. H. Charles. The oldest version was taken as the greater authority where there were differences. He also compares the oldest source to available Greek fragments. He looked at the Qumrun (Dead Sea Scroll) fragments in Aramaic but they didn’t influence his translation. As an example, here is a translation from a fragment of Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It refers to the height of the “giants” as 3,000 cubits. In his translation, the height is shown as 300 cubits.

2 Enoch is also provided in the Charlesworth collection. It is the Slavic version, very fragmented in 20 different sources. The differences are so great that they are shown in columns. This Enoch doesn’t look a lot like the 1 Enoch but it includes some fascinating prophesies.

3 Enoch is also provided in the Charlesworth collection. It is the Hebrew apocalypse of Enoch, a product of the Merkabah mystics. There is a direct connection between Merkabah literature and Qumran, the Jewish Kabbalah, etc.

IMHO, 1 Enoch is the most significant to the New Testament but one loses a lot of the “landscape” by not also reading about the other Enochs, fragments, etc.

However, until or unless a complete Enoch is recovered of as great or greater antiquity than the Dead Sea Scrolls – to which all of these fragments and “copies” can be compared, we cannot be completely confident that we have the whole manuscript. This is the sad result of both the Jews and the Christians not accepting Enoch in the various canons.

If anyone wishes to read up on Enoch, I very strongly suggest the Charlesworth collection and most importantly – pray about everything you read and let the Spirit guide your understanding - God alone is Truth and the Spirit alone can lead us into Truth. Likewise, I suggest that the Charlesworth collection be the primary source for excerpts on this thread.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your questions!

I don't doubt that the watchers involved at that time were so imprisoned. What about those who weren't but are now?

I am not aware of any Watchers being designated, sinning and subsequently imprisoned after the Noah flood judgment. I am also not aware of any prophesies of such in Scripture.

And, I don't know that giants would be the result.

That giants were the result of angels breeding with mortal women is in Genesis 6:1-4 and also in Enoch. There is a dispute about size - 300 cubits or 3000 cubits.

And the women became pregnant and gave birth to great giants whose heights were three hundred cubits. These (giants) consumed the produce of all the people until the people detested feeding them. So the giants turned against (the people) in order to eat them. And they began to sin against birds, wild beasts, reptiles, and fish. And their flesh was devoured the one by the other, and they drank blood. And then the earth brought an accusation against the oppressors.

Such a huge eating machine would be hard to miss. To me, the description (size and conduct) sounds a lot like the various dragon myths of old. (Perhaps the dragons of folklore were legends handed down from experiences with these giants?)

At any rate, according to Enoch - when the Watchers were judged by God, they pled for their children, these giants. God destroyed the children's bodies but their spirits have roamed the earth ever since as the evil spirits, unclean spirits or demons - whereas their fathers (the angels who sinned) were chained in darkness for the final judgment. (Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4-5)

[Quix]

SORRY.

I wasn't very clear.

Given a LOT of givens plus conjecture and puzzle pieces . . .

it seems more than a little plausible to me that THE WATCHERS in our era are known as ET's.

I don't wish to get into an exhaustive WHY at the moment. I will note that the sometimes reported 70 different races of ET's WATCHING the drama on our planet . . . and dinking with it somewhat seem to do things akin to demonic forces and/or at least be in league with demonic forces.

I do NOT, however, consider them totally identical to demonic forces 100%. That is, I do not consider 100% of all demonic forces to be ET's NOR do I consider 100% of all ET's to be demonic forces. I do believe that whether they are demonic forces inhabiting bioengineered 'shells,' or not, that 90-99% of the more commonly observed and reported ET races are at least incahoots with satan toward establishing a global government; controlling man; and trying to throw sand in God's face in the 'final conflict.'

AND, that they are clearly literally scr*wing around with humans of both sexes--literally and invitro against humans' wills. I suspect God is as annoyed with it this time as He was in the days of Noah.

There's little to no reported evidence of giants being produced. Usually, the offspring are reported to be rather puny but healthier than the ET parents in some respects that are hard to discern.

Can we say with any certainty that the WATCHERS of Noah's era are more or less the same class of critter as the WATCHERS of our era? I don't know that we can say much of certainty except that GOD IS; CHRIST IS HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN WHO DIED FOR US; ROSE AGAIN . . . etc.

But, to me, it's much more than a little plausible.

There is one significant difference. The WATCHERS of NOAH's era seemed to be copulating with women out of lust reasons rather totally and wholesale. The WATCHERS of our era appear to be copulating with both men and women in a rather cold scientific enterprise of some sort devoid of any passion except what they artificially trigger in the humans to coerce the humans cooperation. And, many times, sperm and ova are harvested in a very sterile, mechainzed way.

Some say offspring from such are to reinvigorate the ET's homeworld dying from whatever ingrownness and genetic engineering gone long awry. Some say it's to engineer a mass of human savy, human appearing, human compatible troops to help control earth. I don't know that anyone (but God), even the government really knows. Some say all that is government research about pollution and nuclear deteriortation of the genome under the guise of ET's. There might CONCEIVABLY be some of that but I doubt it's the whole reported picture of such escapades.

I don't know that any of this is all that central to anything eternal. Even if the WATCHERS end up playing a central role in end time events; they will eventually just end up as a functional footnote to the climax. Christ and His Church will have the starring roles. All forces of evil will be trounced and removed from ALL Creation.

And for that, I believe that all the true races of ET's or WATCHERS or whatever else there is will be REJOICING as Scripture indicates.

[I'm not really that interested in debating the existence of ET's with the naysayers. If fair-minded folks want to sort through in a mutually respectful way such issues as are touched on above--fine with me as I have time and energy.]

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for the explanation!

I have no personal experience with unidentified flying objects and don't have an opinion - one way or the other - as to whether or not they are visitations from the spirits. My now deceased husband had seen a UFO and was asked to appear on a television program with a panel. He was a pilot but the others there were not and were quite excitable and had all kinds of ideas of what the UFOs were, their "purpose" and such. My husband was not pleased to be in that company and ended his part in the panel by simply observing that what he saw was unidentifiable - if he could have identified it, it wasn't a UFO.

I do note that in Scripture, angels may appear as normal people ("Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." - Hebrews 13:2") They may also appear with frightening demeanor (Daniel, etc.)

But even if the UFO's were some visible form of angelic visitation - I do not put any weight on a claim that they are among the Watchers. The angels in heaven do not have sexual relations (Matt 22:22-33) The Watchers (who according to Enoch were angels made in heaven but assigned to earth) were a uniquely assigned group of angels who had a physical manifestation such that they could and did have sex with women and produced giants (see also Genesis 6). For that conduct and more, they are all imprisoned for the final judgment. (Jude, 2 Peter 2, Enoch)

Without the evidence of such giants (Genesis 6, Enoch) walking the earth today, I do not accept the testimony of women claiming to have had sex with angels.

[Quix]

I understand. I think!

Thanks.

[concretebob]

While the New Testament uses the Greek word "demon" to refer to these "sons of the mighty", the Old Testament uses revealing descriptive names. Words which describe these beings, such as b'nai Elohim, "sons of God", Zophim, "the watchers", and Malakh, "messengers", (translated angel in English), are used for the "aerial host" often regardless of alignment. New Testament demons were understandably associated with evil, since originally the Greek term diamon meant "any deity", and the Bible consistently portrays only one God. There are three main terms for demons in the New Testament: daimonion (demon; 60 times, 50 in the Gospels); pneuma (spirit; some 52 times) usually with a qualifying adjective such as akatharton (unclean; 21 times) or poneron (evil; 8 times); and angelos (7 times of demonic agencies). Daimon (demon), the term commonly used in classical Greek, appears only once (Mark 8:31) ( Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Walter A. Elwell (Ed))

[concretebob]

Lucifer comitted the worst sin of all, he was prideful. He told God he would place himself above God, and all would bow to him.
This has been Lucifer's goal from the start, to place himself ABOVE God, to be LIKE God.
That is why the Watchers took wives from the human segment of society. Lucifer wanted to start his own race of beings which would be loyal to him.

Lucifer is very clear about his ambitions in his "I will..." speech quoted in Isaiah 14:13:
I will go up to the heavens,
I will raise my thrown above the stars of God, and
I will sit in the mount of meeting, in the sides of the north.
I will rise over the heights of the clouds:
I will be compared to the Most High.

[concretebob]

To follow up:

(KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!"

(Interlinear)
"O shining star, son of morning,
how you have fallen from the heavens...
For you said in your heart,
I will go up to the heavens;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
and I will sit in the mount of meeting
I will be compared to the most high."

Lucifer, the greatest of God's angels, "sealed the measure" of perfection and beauty of all creation. His nature reflected the glory of God, and the word of God which spoke all creation into existence.

Ezekial 28:
You were the anointed cherub
that covers, and I had put you
in the holy height of God...
YOU WALKED UP AND DOWN IN THE MIDST OF THE STONES OF FIRE...
You were perfect in your ways from the day
you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

Ezekial's prophecy is addressed to the "king of the rock", an "anointed Cherub", who is described as traveling "in the midst of the stones of fire" which literally translated is "in the midst or among the eh-ben, 'built stones or rocks',of fire".

BUILT STONES? What are they that the greatest angel created Bible prophecy, stones of fire, cherubim, seraphim, angel, devil, demon, prince of the powers of the air, authority over UFOs, ufo, alien, demon, monuments on the moon could travel up and down in their vastness? The answer is in the night sky. There can be seen "God built " stones reflecting the light of the sun.. . the planets.

Before the creation of Adam, the civilizations of angels existed on the terrestrial planets. Throughout scripture there is a consistent reference to the first dwelling places of some of the ancient sons of God. These angels created habitations on the Earth, Mars, "Astera" the Fifth Planet, the Moon ...

Ezekial 28:
3 Behold you are wiser than Daniel;
every one of the secret things is not hidden to you...
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
16 By the multitude of your trade they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned.
So I cast you profaned from the height of God, AND I DESTROYED YOU, OH COVERING CHERUB, FROM AMONG THE STONES OF FIRE...
18 By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have profaned your holy places;
thus I brought a fire from your midst;

[Quix]

Thanks.

[Quix]

True.

[Quix]

I hadn't ran across that perspective before.

Thanks.

Quite interesting.

Blessings,

[Safrguns]

No... I don't think it really matters. If you know a lot about angels and their attributes from the bible (evil or not), you might find that their actions in the bible are inconsistent with that of demons... i.e. no fallen angel would have any need or desire to 'possess' a human body. Their bodies are already far superior to ours, and it would simply be of no use to them. Demons on the other hand are disembodied spirits. They DO desire to control flesh, because it is something they used to have but have lost.
So... the question then becomes... where did demons come from if they are not fallen angels? There is also discussion about the original greek translations of the phrase 'formless and void' in Genesis 1:2, which is said to be more like the aftermath of destruction, rather than the emptiness following creation as most assume. So, if Genesis 1:2 is describing the destruction of earth, what was destroyed?
This then takes us to other various scriptures which give hints and implications of a race of beings that existed before Adam's time. Which ones? I don't know... I got most of this from a sunday school class taught by someone who was EXTREMELY familiar with Hebrew... It made sense to me, and I know this guy well... someone who is closer to God than anyone else I can think of. He actually worked with Einstein at one point in his life... very smart guy.

[concretebob]

Safrguns..You sound just like me.
I swear, I was reading your post, thinking to myself, "when did I post this?"...:)

[concretebob]

All I'd do is reinforce what you said, and maybe do some "linear interpolation" regarding the physical body/lack of, scenario.

[Safrguns]

Assuming that fallen angels were never de-frocked of their bodies, why would it be necessary or desirable for a fallen angel to 'possess' a human body which is far less impressive than theirs? If demons are actually dis-embodied spirits (which would explain why they want to possess humans), where did they come from? Products of angel/human relations? maybe... don't know... assuming they are, wouldn't this be a very limited army at Satan's disposal? were the angels which had relations with humans doing this for so long without challenge that would explain the multitude of demons that are known to exist? Only a third of the angels rebelled against God... not much to work with there at armageddon when your still facing the other 2/3rds.

Now here's a real good kicker... You know how God likes the number 3.... We know that Satan leads a rebellion against God twice... once in heaven with 1/3 of the angels, and once in Revelations at armageddon. What happened to 3??? (unless armageddon IS # 3... so where's # 2?)

[concretebob]

I would have LOVED to have been in that Sunday School class.
What a marvelous way to justify/reinforce/verify, one's faith.
(not sure if any of those descriptors are correct in context, but that could be another 1100+ post thread)

[concretebob]

Apparently, they can't exist for very long OUTSIDE of a physical body.
That is what I have read in the past, and I can't remember where, but it was on a website which researched the individual entities in terms of their names, and their function.
It also had an admonition that it was best to ignore them, and their existence.
As if acknowledging their existence increased their power.
It was stated that these spirits are extremely evil, and very vindictive, and a mortal expressing overt curiosity, was apt to find more than he wanted.
There are people in the world, who have dedicated their lives to finding these evil spirits.

Yes, it sounds crazy, but no more so than UFO chasers.

[Safrguns]

Tohu and Bofu... Formless and Void
The same phrase is also used in Revelations somewhere in reference to destruction of the earth... not sure where.