"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

[Patrick Madrid]

Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.

Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.

Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.

[pro Athanasius]

Also the cover up of Trent and Quo Primum is far worse because those are the real indults.

[pro Athanasius]

Yes he does but we are going to go through the ringer big time. They will be defeated in the end but it will look like they are winning and we will take lots of defeats until the big battle.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

And, of course, the association of Latin with the traditionalist movement rather than with Catholicism itself, only makes any sense in the context of the radical liberal modernism which attempted to get rid of the Latin Mass entirely (incorrectly claiming a mandate to do so from Vatican II).

The liturgical travesties of radical modernism are only part of the problem. The tip of the iceberg or...ahem...um... pyramid, as it were. But this has been going on for a long time.

http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Quigley_GU_Suicide.html

IS GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY COMMITTING "SUICIDE"?
History Professor Relates School's Difficulties To Lack Of Direction, Loss Of Christian Foundations
by Carroll Quigley, Ph.D.
Professor of History
(The Hoya, Friday, April 28. 1967)

IHS+

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[pascendi]

"So as long as my understanding corresponds with your definition,everything is A-O.K.,is that what you meant?

Not at all; there's only the Church's definition of things; there's no "this person's definition or understanding, or "that person's", that matters any. The question is whether one restates the truth precisely as the Church has held the divine revelation She has been entrusted to safeguard.

It's never a defense of any person's definition of the truth or understanding/interpretation of it. Also, remember that what the Church holds as doctrine are divinely revealed truths concerning ultimate reality, and not mere interpretations or understandings. All members either conform to the perennial truth of the Church or they don't. Members do not reference each other in order to be in unity or gain conformity, but true unity and conformity between members only happens when all members reference the same Deposit of Faith and conform to it.

#511: regarding "Where is where?" "We are following Christ and His Spouse (Catholic Church) to heaven,or,in other words,back to the Father."

We are the spouse of Christ, which you did state again more clearly:

"Or,we are following Peter,who is following Christ and His Spouse. His Spouse is the Church that He established as a visible presence to remain in His stead until until He returns or we reach the Father before He returns. He remains with the visible Church by virtue of the Holy Spirit,the Spirit of Truth which He promised to Peter and the eleven or twelve until the consumation of the world. So that's where we are unless you think we are someplace else."

Generally speaking I would say sure, so long as getting real picky on details is put aside. But there is an idea that people fall into whereby they view the Holy Father's leadership as one of forging new territory, or setting course in particular directions and new destinations. They then posit that it is Church teaching that the Holy Ghost is directly involved in these matters, such that whatever the pope does can't be argued with; that to argue with the pope is to argue with the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity. This is not at all the case. The Holy Ghost does not at all work through the pontificate in this manner, and the Church has never made any promise to that effect. Granted, there's what seems only a shade of a distinction here, but it is significant. The true action of the Holy Ghost working through the pontiff, among other things, is to safeguard the Deposit of Faith, and to expel what is contrary to it, and to maintain the focus of the Church's heart and mind on the path of salvation. While he may do nothing to come to the assistance of a faltering Church, the Holy Ghost has prevented anything which is contrary to the Deposit of Faith from being declared as binding. Therein lies the promise concerning the victory against the gates of Hell.

"Imagine my surprise when about one hundred posts later,you come up with a definition,which if I agree with,puts us in accord. Well,I say to you, if it says what I said than you and I agree and what's more we are right..

Imho it's very simple: there's a lot of good people out there who want to assist the Church and have no clue the magnitude and nature of the evil that has blown through the Church. They want to assist but they're afraid to come to grips the devastation, let alone the cause of it. What's more, though they are well intentioned, they have without realizing it, to some degree or another imbibed the very modernist ideas that they are attempting to fight off. One of the traps laid out before them is to put their real and true loyalty to the pontiff into direct conflict with their loyalty to the Deposit of Faith. It confuses the crap out of people. In this particular Pope they have found a personality which is conducive to their plans

"So if you would explain what this faithful means with regards this ongoing war of words that goes on,on these threads I would be very happy. Thanks"

Faithful means to hold the all of the Catholic Faith whole and entire, without modification, and to live in conformity with that Faith. Most wouldn't have trouble with this statement; where the trouble comes in is keeping that Faith during a period of time when others are attempting to re-cast and insert new meanings of what Catholic truth is, and how to live it.

[dsc]

“Like it or not, the Church is a hierarchy. If you are unsure about this, I suggest you brush up on your Baltimore Catechism. If you prefer a more democratic model of Church”

And there’s more in the same “like it or lump it” vein. Mount Olympus Syndrome, I call it.

No, I don’t want a democratic model. On the other hand, the hierarchy of the Church has responsibilities as well as power. For instance, they have a responsibility to execute the duties of their offices in as just a fashion as possible, placing ethical, moral, and theological issues foremost.

Calls to “respect the process” only arise because no claim on respect can be made from justice, because a person can’t defend a decision on ethical, moral, or theological grounds. If a decision can be defended on those grounds, there is no reason to order the peasants to respect it as “process.”

“but this is whom Our Lord left in charge of His Church”

Ummm, no. Not at all. He left the Church, but fallible men selected other fallible men to occupy those offices at this moment in history. Further, Aquinas tells us that even the Holy Father must be disobeyed when he is clearly acting wrongly.

“That includes the process they establish.”

Not when such a process is unjust, unethical, immoral, or contrary to the laws of the Church itself. God never requires us to respect that which is not worthy of respect.

“In my experience, those who ask in good faith”

Fascinating. It would never have occurred to me to think anyone asked for an indult “in bad faith.” What ulterior motive impelled such people, I wonder?

“eventually prevail.”

Your own words convict many bishops of malicious disobedience of the Holy Father. The indult is to be “broad and generous,” not a pittance that one eventually wrings from a resisting bishop only after sufficient self-abasement.

[AlbionGirl]

The indult is to be “broad and generous,” not a pittance that one eventually wrings from a resisting bishop only after sufficient self-abasement.

Very well put, even if the words sting like hell, and bring a lump to my throat. God Bless you, and yours, dsc.

You too, pascendi.

[Land of the Irish]

IS GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY COMMITTING "SUICIDE"

Well, their "frankenstein" experiments continue to support infanticide.

[Dominick]

And, of course, the association of Latin with the traditionalist movement rather than with Catholicism itself, only makes any sense in the context of the radical liberal modernism which attempted to get rid of the Latin Mass entirely (incorrectly claiming a mandate to do so from Vatican II).

My point in saying Latin doesn't make you Catholic is to make the point that sedavacanists and schismatics of all stripes are attempting to tear down the rightful authority of the Holy See, and play into the most malingering of false reformers.

Those false reformers are happy to sign oaths they don't mean and lie to hold positions in order to cause disorder. Having people fight over the form of the Mass allows them to make back door reforms like Altar Girls (which are not really approved) and to force the Communion in the Hand (not as an option, but compulsory).

I do agree that the Indult is supposed to be widespread. It isn't. Why not? I think that it is because of some who take advantage of the schism. They spread fear to say there is no justice to be found in the Church, and instead of following the remedies found in Canon law and protest, they simply protest. They build personal followers, and not followers of Christ.

Filing letters and appeals are just as important as showing up to pray loudly when a pagan or proabort is asked to speak at the Church.

I know I called the Chancery when Call to Action advertised they were using a local Parish, and showed up to see if the meeting was canceled.

Why would a Bishop allow an indult for people that is saying "screw you" to his administration, acts outside the processes of the Church, and acts like they will be wronged no matter what he does?

St. Thomas Moore was a lawyer to the end, trying to find any way to get his point across with in the system, even as they were ready to execute him unjustly. People protested as they did then, but they also used the system against Henry forcing him to ignore his own law publicly.

That paper trail is important because it shows our obedience to the lawful authority, while we refuse to carry out specific unlawful orders.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

The schismatic element within the traditionalist movement of Catholicism is so small it's a complete waste of time to be getting upset about at all anymore than it would be to spend hours upon hours worrying about the wacko Protestant fundamentalist heretics in the backwoods of the American south.

[pro Athanasius]

Regarding your #21 post Madrid should be ashamed of himself for the "division" he has caused but then again the Conciliar authorities are ultimately responsible for this themselves. I find Mr. Madrid to be generating a crass money making self promotion at the expense of good Catholics. He posts his own book to sell it and generate more customers and then he won't respond to people who want to challenge him like myself and yourself. I gave him a defense of the traditional Catholic faith and attending the old Mass as canonized by Trent and made in perpetuity by Quo Primum and he has not responded. The indult was given hundreds of years ago already. The Vatican wants their New Mass mess experiment to work but its not and they don’t want you to know that you can go to any old Latin Mass which is said by a validly ordained priest. Even there 1986 commission said so see here :

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9463/noschism.html

and http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm

Hey I haven't read all of the posts but has anyone gotten a response from Mr. Madrid? Let me know if he did. I would really like him to but he appears to be taking the money and running. Waiting for the phone calls at his magazine site as the dollar signs ring in yet not bothering to respond to those people whom he has attacked. It is basically a hit and run accident but it seems like it is more on purpose what do you think??

[dsc]

"Why would a Bishop allow an indult for people that is saying "screw you" to his administration, acts outside the processes of the Church, and acts like they will be wronged no matter what he does?"

Ummm....because the Holy Father told him to?

[pro Athanasius]

"What does logic have to do with conspiracy theories?

It's a given: whether you are for or against the Old Rite, you, too, can be in the conspiracy.

Have a Mason jar in your house?"


Can we make another analogy since you want to make conspiracy theories look ridiculous with Mason jars. Did anyone conspire against Jesus Christ then why wouldn't people conspire against his body the Church?? Tell the reigning Jewish authorities of Jesus day that they didn't conspire against Jesus. Tell the ACLU that while you are at it. They know who there enemy is - is it possible that you don't?? You have to know your enemy in order to pray for him A. that God either confounds them or B. that they are converted to the one true Catholic faith outside of which there is no salvation.

Anyone that doesn't believe in at least a few conspiracy theories is way out in utopia land and that is a conspiracy also. The devil is the primary conspirator and he was the father of lies as Christ said that is what conspirators do they tell lies. You and I and all Catholics are being lied to when we are told that we have to have a Bishop give us permission to go to the old Latin Mass. Mr. Madrid has bought into the lie and he is blind to the conspiracy. I hope you are not. Any guy that uses Torquemada should know this. I have shared it with you before.

In this way, the Pope could, without doubt, fall into Schism.... Especially is this true with regard to the liturgy, as for example, if he did not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church.... The same holds true for other aspects of the liturgy in a very
general fashion.... By separating himself from the observance of the Universal customs of the church, and by so doing with obstinacy, the Pope is able to fall into schism. Such a conclusion is only just because the premises on which it is based are beyond doubt. For, just as the Pope can
become a heretic, so he is also able to do so with the sin of obstinacy. Thus it is that Innocent states (De Consuetudine) that it is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not himself go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal
customs of the Church, he need not be followed...." --Cardinal Juan de Torquemada (Turrencremata), Summa de Ecclesia (1489) and Commentarii in
Decretum Gratiani (1519)

And one wonders if the Conciliar authorities by the way they behave at the Fatima Shrine with the Hindus tolerating their idolatrous and pagan worship and dancing around in our Shrine have any faith left. And what is the Pope or Ratzinger doing about it?? Nothing that I know of.

Tolerance is the virtue of people who do not believe in anything. --
G.K. Chesterton

I notice that the so called tolerant of all religions and creeds is intolerance toward the Catholic religion and her doctrines see here for Rousseau’s Social Contract here (the liberals are tolerant for everything but tradition then they want to censure or better yet destroy). http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/04Aug/aug8agg.htm


and how he wanted to get rid of the defining Catholic doctrine No Salvation outside the Catholic Church - it seems that so many of the Conciliar authorities are doing just this.
It is as if a madness has set in. Look at all of the posts
on this. Instead of us doing this posting stuff some of which is lets bash traditional Catholics- how many of you have written to Guerra, The Vatican or anyone about this apostasy at Fatima?? Has Madrid? Has Madrid written about it. I have I am a traditional Catholic and proud to be one. We have to pray and work not sit and complain about people that go to the old Mass. Why doesn't Madrid write a book about what is really going on in Fatima?? That is the the real schism and real apostacy and it is all done under the auspices of the Vatican apparatus.

Not on your life because then he would not be able to rake in the Conciliar dollars. Talk to all of the traditional apologists who have lost there living or had it cut in half once they returned to tradition. THE believers in Christ are the ones who are persecuted all around- Christ hung on a cross for us and it is time that we wake up to that and not re-crucify him again in his body the Church.

[ninenot]

Your own words convict many bishops of malicious disobedience of the Holy Father. The indult is to be “broad and generous,” not a pittance that one eventually wrings from a resisting bishop only after sufficient self-abasement.

IMHO, GG would be a liar if he tried to tell you that 'All Bishops are completely obedient to the Holy Father at all times.'

I certainly would not make such a statement, although I think that there are a couple of Bishops in this country who do 'obey the HF at all times.'

So?

The fact that injustice exists is not exactly news.

[ninenot]

allows them to make back door reforms like Altar Girls (which are not really approved)

Actually, altar-ettes ARE approved--or perhaps, "they are not disapproved" is the correct phrase.

IIRC this decision rests on the precedent established by Pius XII who allowed women to sing in church choirs back in the mid-1950's. THAT decision was made on the basis that such singing was not a formal 'ministry,' (such as Acolyte, Sub-Deacon, etc....)

Ping to the canonist for a more informed opinion.

[ninenot]

The schismatic element within the traditionalist movement of Catholicism is so small it's a complete waste of time

But they take up a lot of bandwidth on FR, and as you may notice, they also seem to be gaining 'converts' on these boards.

I agree with you, however, that SSPX is over-playing its hand.

[ninenot]

If you read ALL my posts to HMBA, you'd find that I firmly believe that there ARE conspirators--who are led by the First Conspirator---perfectly willing to destroy the Church.

I think you ALSO know that they will not succeed, period.

OTOH, there are those who would consign Bp. Bruskewitz (e.g.) to that group, and I think that those who hold that position are absolutely, incontrovertibly, CRAZY.

Just as are those who will find that the above paragraph makes ME a "conspirator."

Kapische?

[dsc]

"The fact that injustice exists is not exactly news."

Didn't say it was. I was on about being ordered to "respect the process" because the decision itself was not worthy of respect.

[dsc]

"But they take up a lot of bandwidth on FR, and as you may notice, they also seem to be gaining 'converts' on these boards."

I really didn't know much about the issue until I learned about it on FR.

ELINT types learn to identify particular emitters by sound. Ah, that's a SAM fire control radar...that's a shipboard surface search radar...etc. Transmitter ID'd by sound of emitter, you could say.

There are analogies on line. Vocabulary, style, tone, use of certain strategems, contempt or respect for the opposition...sometimes somebody logs on under a different handle, but you can spot him right away. Seminar posters are usually pegged pretty quickly here, because even when they're trying to dissemble, they still sound like liberals.

When I stumbled on the Modernist Heresy controversy and started trying to figure it out, one thing struck me immediately--one side was emitting sounds that were very, very similar to those of political liberals, and the other side was not. One side was contemptuous and nasty, and the other side much less so.

In short, one side was arguing like DU liberals, and the other side was not.

If SSPX is making converts here, that's thanks as much to the tawdry conduct of many of their detractors as to anything else.

[ninenot]

It becomes VERY tiresome to refute the same lies and neatly-sliced-and-diced quotations, hundreds of times a month.

IOW, some liars SEEM to have cogent arguments. It's very easy for the Father of Lies to keep lying. It's part of his nature. And usually, the Father of Lies lies very convincingly.

In a way, I didn't learn about lying by omission, or lying by careful construction, until Clinton was in office. But I find it disgusting that SSPX uses the same techniques.

Don't you?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

they also seem to be gaining 'converts' on these boards. 635 posted on 08/05/2004 5:13:16 AM PDT by ninenot

The only way to combat that is for the official institutional church to reconnect with Catholic tradition, sound practice and doctrine. It doesn't help that some diocesan officials try to suppress the Indult Masses or make it almost impossible to find out where they are. It is a waste of time to egg on schismatic traditionalists or to get caught up in these name-calling games that some of their adversaries do on FR. They should be accorded the same respect one would extend to Anglicans, Greek Orthodox, or Baptists. Where one disagrees non-ad-hominem discussions of key points is the best method.