Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
Catholic canon lawyer Peter Vere and I have co-authored a new book critiquing the claims and controversies of extreme traditionalism that will come out in September, published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.
Written in a popular and accessible style, More Catholic Than the Pope provides a detailed analysis of and response to common arguments raised by extreme traditionalist Catholics (in particular, adherents of the Society of St. Pius X) against the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, the fact that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre committed a schismatic act by illicitly ordaining four bishops in 1988, and more. Chapters include a history of the SSPX, a background on the controversy between the SSPX and the so-called "Conciliar Church," and answers to several standard canon-law and historical arguments often raised by extreme traditionalists.
Our hope is that, by God's grace, the evidence presented in this new 224-page book will inform, encourage, and strengthen Catholics who have been shaken or confused by the misguided arguments raised against the Catholic Church by some extreme traditionalists and, with regard to those who have adopted a schismatic mindset, that this book will help them recognize the errors of extreme traditionalist groups, help them to see why they should abandon those errors, and help them come home to the Catholic Church.
Additional details on More Catholic Than the Pope will be available soon at Envoy Encore weblog.
The other thing I have noticed has been that in the wake of the splintering of the church into various factions since Vatican II, with new experiments in the design of church organizations, is that even groups which claim to be orthodox have strayed from sound models of transmitting knowledge about the church. You can end up with zealous champions for the faith who are misinformed or simply not knowledgeable enough about all kinds of things. This can lead to goofy and kooky situations.
And one of the reasons why they lack basic knowledge is because they have not participated in the life of the institutional church at large. There has been an historic disruption. This has been caused in part because of the prevailing liberalism and modernism which tended to dominate after Vatican II.
I would include some of the silly episodes reported about the Ave Maria College/University in the category of "goofy and kooky situations" which have popped up even among those claiming to be orthodox. The controversies between Crisis magazine and Michael Rose, between The New Oxford Review and First Things, and Ave Maria College would all fall into this category.
The completely absurd statements by John Kerry on Catholic matters, abortion, and the Separation of Church and State, are classic examples of the kind of kooky and silly things that happen when a nominal Catholic lacking any sound Catholic education is turned loose on center stage in American society. The valorization of Ivy League credentials by Catholics in recent years has introduced a lot of confusion and misinformation into Catholic circles. Even among apparently conservative and orthodox Catholics, I might add.
Why do you like to bash traditional Catholics?? You got out of the Novus Ordo by going into the Byzantine rites according to what I have heard.
Traditional Catholics who want to go to an old Latin Mass are protected by Trent and Quo Primum - the indult was already given years ago the 1986 commission met of Nine cardinals met and said any priest could say it without a Bishops permission. They just doesn't want people to know because they want their Novus Ordo experiment to work. Now why should a priest say a Mass with nobody there- Vatican II said they want people to go to Mass in the Latin Rite. They never said anything about a New Rite in any of the documents of Vatican II.
Here is canon law for you.
Can. 214 Christ's faithful have the right to worship God according to the provisions of their own rite approved by the lawful Pastors of the Church; they also have the right to follow their own form of spiritual life, provided it is in accord with Church teaching.
Canon 1248, §1, which states that: "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated ANYWHERE in a Catholic rite..."
the 1917 Old Code of Canon Law (Bouscaren & Ellis, p.635):The Mass may be celebrated in any Catholic rite; therefore an Oriental may satisfy the precept by hearing Mass according to the Latin rite, and a Latin by hearing it according to any of the Catholic Oriental rites.
[The faithful] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence, and position, to manifest to the sacred pastors [bishops] their views on matters that concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the pastors, and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals. (Canon Law 212)
Fr. Brien Harrison further notes that "No clause in canon 212 exempts the words, deeds, policies, or omissions of a pope himself from such criticism. Moreover, by affirming the right of the faithful 'to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful' as well as to the Church's pastors, this canon makes clear that public as well as private criticism can be legitimate." The pope has to respect the old Rites of the Church- they are not allowed to be radically changed.
Council of Trent that solemnly declared anathema-----that is, it is a heresy-----to say that any pastor in the Church, whosoever he may be, has the power to change the traditional rite into a new rite. This is found in Session 7 Canon 13 on the "Sacraments in General:""If anyone says that the received and approved rites customarily used in the Catholic Church for the solemn administration of the Sacraments can be changed into other new rites by any pastor in the Church whosoever, let him be anathema."
Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ's faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.
§2 Whenever necessity requires or a ""genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a ""catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from"non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid. """" This code is written in a very liberal way so I really don't see how you can possibly criticize any Catholic who goes to a traditional Catholic priest who is a man of honor and orthodoxy and was validly ordained.
Now if I can go to an orthodox service to get my Sunday obligation met then I can go to an old Latin Mass in an independent Chapel to a priest validly ordained priest then that is hogwash that I CAN NOT go to a validly ordained Catholic priest to hear the old Latin Mass in the Latin Rite that I was born into. If you want to change rites go ahead but I don't.
In the Remnant Issue April 30, 2004 p.7 in an article by Michael Davies titled "A Letter from London he stated to Bishop Hugh A Donohoe of Fresno, California dated February 23, 1967, that "...You must surely be aware that the Secretariat of Christian Unity issued an Ecumenical Directory in 1967. This Directory not only authorized Catholics to take part in the liturgy of the Orthodox Church on Sundays, but said that this satisfies their Sunday Mass obligation. Yes, my Lord, to take part in the worship of schismatics fulfills our Sunday obligation, but to worship in the manner which has inspired so many saints and has been sanctified by the blood of martyrs- this must be punished by excommunication. My Lord, unless your diocesr is unique in the western world, the introduction of the new Mass for Pastoral reason will have been followed by a serious decline in Mass attendance. Thousands of your flock, who assisted at Mass each Sunday before, no longer do so- but they will not be excommunicated. Oh no, my Lord. Better no Mass at all that the Mass of our fathers."
After all how does an Orthodox priest have any jurisdiction over me?? and don't give me any bunk about provided it doesn't cause scandal or indifferentistm because the Vatican doesn't stop any scandal or indifferentism in the Novus Ordo that much and they pray with Hindus and the pope stated:
On August 8, 1985, John Paul II speaks of his meeting with African animists as: “The prayer meeting in the sanctuary at Lake Togo was particularly striking. There I prayed for the first time with animists” L’Osservatore Romano, August 26, 1985, p. 9. and La Croix, a French Periodical.
You are attacking Catholics who attend a valid Rite in the Church and you should stop for the good of your soul- you are going along to get along- go ahead but quit bashing the Catholics who have chosen to follow canon 212, 1248 and Trent 13 ses 7 and Quo Primum which are binding in perpetuity. Don’t tell me that it is just a discipline that can be rescinded the Mass involves doctrine and discipline and you know it. Doctrine can not be changed by a new popes. New rites can not be changed in any significant way. If the new Rite is so great then why don’t you go to it for your regular Sunday obligation??
The suppression of the Indult Masses is a terrible scandal. I find it odd that some of the same people pointing "schismatic" fingers also support keeping the Indult Masses as unknown and hidden as possible. There's nothing wrong with the old Mass. It is a glorious treasure of the church and the liturgy which inspired numerous saints and heroic champions of Christendom. It's a terrible scandal what wreckovating liberal modernists have done in the name of "the Spirit of Vatican II." They are the greatest danger to the church.
It cuts both ways. Where the Indult Mass is available, people should participate and serve Christ in the church.
It really should be part of every seminarian's training to learn how to say the Tridentine Latin Mass.
I understand this. It's just disappointing that people can't see how tactics like post 588 are meant to pit one good thing against another, such as pitting a true, real and necessary loyalty and obedience to the hierarchy of the Church against a traditional Mass that holds fast to doctrine and tradition.
Good... thanks.
Every parish has people with kooky or twisted ideas, unbalanced obsessions. Not sure about every pew, but anti-Catholic secret societies exist. The challenge for a pastor who wants to serve the faithful and Christ is to preach the Gospel, attend to the sacraments, and foster sound Catholic education. Wouldn't the proper charitable option be to explain why the Pope is not a heretic, why it is in the interest of the church to celebrate Mass in English, and what the correct Catholic teachings are (of the Popes) on anti-Catholic secret societies which conspire against church and state???
I've understood this process long before now.
I would find it odd if someone suggested the best way to counteract the idea that there was an anti-Catholic secret society conspiracy to suppress the Tridentine Latin Mass is to continue to suppress it.
Interestingly, there were THREE Parishes which requested permission to use the Old Rite, in addition to the extant Indult community.
AFAIK, all of them were turned down pending some decisions surrounding the Old Rite community. I don't know that I agree with that decision--some people have to travel in excess of 60 miles one-way--but we'll see what happens.
Even Rembert Weakland found it easy to co-operate with the community, although he did not allow weddings/funerals (evidently a violation of Canon Law in Huels' and your interpretation...)
With some dioceses going bankrupt from the perverts who were staffing the Novus Ordo "people's assemblies" can the church afford to suppress the Indult Masses in Latin?
Horsehockey.
We spent about 30 minutes/Sunday removing wacky tracts from the pews and tables before and after EVERY Sunday OR celebration. At this time, the ONLY material made available is the fascicle-OR Missal for those who don't have their own, and the word is out--leave anything else and it will be immediately removed.
I don't doubt for a second that there are some Bishops, chancery-types, and priests who will do ANYTHING to screw around with trads. I've met some. They lie, they twist, they arbitrarily and capriciously do whatever they feel like.
But they do not prevail at all times, in all places.
The best part: they eventually retire or die.
If you're subject to that sort of rule, my prayers are with you, and you're going to do LESS time in Purgatory for it.
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