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To: Patrick Madrid

Why do you like to bash traditional Catholics?? You got out of the Novus Ordo by going into the Byzantine rites according to what I have heard.

Traditional Catholics who want to go to an old Latin Mass are protected by Trent and Quo Primum - the indult was already given years ago the 1986 commission met of Nine cardinals met and said any priest could say it without a Bishops permission. They just doesn't want people to know because they want their Novus Ordo experiment to work. Now why should a priest say a Mass with nobody there- Vatican II said they want people to go to Mass in the Latin Rite. They never said anything about a New Rite in any of the documents of Vatican II.

Here is canon law for you.

Can. 214 Christ's faithful have the right to worship God according to the provisions of their own rite approved by the lawful Pastors of the Church; they also have the right to follow their own form of spiritual life, provided it is in accord with Church teaching.

Canon 1248, §1, which states that: "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated ANYWHERE in a Catholic rite..."


the 1917 Old Code of Canon Law (Bouscaren & Ellis, p.635):The Mass may be celebrated in any Catholic rite; therefore an Oriental may satisfy the precept by hearing Mass according to the Latin rite, and a Latin by hearing it according to any of the Catholic Oriental rites.



[The faithful] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence, and position, to manifest to the sacred pastors [bishops] their views on matters that concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the pastors, and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals. (Canon Law 212)
Fr. Brien Harrison further notes that "No clause in canon 212 exempts the words, deeds, policies, or omissions of a pope himself from such criticism. Moreover, by affirming the right of the faithful 'to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful' as well as to the Church's pastors, this canon makes clear that public as well as private criticism can be legitimate." The pope has to respect the old Rites of the Church- they are not allowed to be radically changed.

Council of Trent that solemnly declared anathema-----that is, it is a heresy-----to say that any pastor in the Church, whosoever he may be, has the power to change the traditional rite into a new rite. This is found in Session 7 Canon 13 on the "Sacraments in General:""If anyone says that the received and approved rites customarily used in the Catholic Church for the solemn administration of the Sacraments can be changed into other new rites by any pastor in the Church whosoever, let him be anathema."



Can. 844 §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ's faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2.
§2 Whenever necessity requires or a ""genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a ""catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from"non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid. """" This code is written in a very liberal way so I really don't see how you can possibly criticize any Catholic who goes to a traditional Catholic priest who is a man of honor and orthodoxy and was validly ordained.

Now if I can go to an orthodox service to get my Sunday obligation met then I can go to an old Latin Mass in an independent Chapel to a priest validly ordained priest then that is hogwash that I CAN NOT go to a validly ordained Catholic priest to hear the old Latin Mass in the Latin Rite that I was born into. If you want to change rites go ahead but I don't.

In the Remnant Issue April 30, 2004 p.7 in an article by Michael Davies titled "A Letter from London he stated to Bishop Hugh A Donohoe of Fresno, California dated February 23, 1967, that "...You must surely be aware that the Secretariat of Christian Unity issued an Ecumenical Directory in 1967. This Directory not only authorized Catholics to take part in the liturgy of the Orthodox Church on Sundays, but said that this satisfies their Sunday Mass obligation. Yes, my Lord, to take part in the worship of schismatics fulfills our Sunday obligation, but to worship in the manner which has inspired so many saints and has been sanctified by the blood of martyrs- this must be punished by excommunication. My Lord, unless your diocesr is unique in the western world, the introduction of the new Mass for Pastoral reason will have been followed by a serious decline in Mass attendance. Thousands of your flock, who assisted at Mass each Sunday before, no longer do so- but they will not be excommunicated. Oh no, my Lord. Better no Mass at all that the Mass of our fathers."

After all how does an Orthodox priest have any jurisdiction over me?? and don't give me any bunk about provided it doesn't cause scandal or indifferentistm because the Vatican doesn't stop any scandal or indifferentism in the Novus Ordo that much and they pray with Hindus and the pope stated:
On August 8, 1985, John Paul II speaks of his meeting with African animists as: “The prayer meeting in the sanctuary at Lake Togo was particularly striking. There I prayed for the first time with animists” L’Osservatore Romano, August 26, 1985, p. 9. and La Croix, a French Periodical.

You are attacking Catholics who attend a valid Rite in the Church and you should stop for the good of your soul- you are going along to get along- go ahead but quit bashing the Catholics who have chosen to follow canon 212, 1248 and Trent 13 ses 7 and Quo Primum which are binding in perpetuity. Don’t tell me that it is just a discipline that can be rescinded the Mass involves doctrine and discipline and you know it. Doctrine can not be changed by a new popes. New rites can not be changed in any significant way. If the new Rite is so great then why don’t you go to it for your regular Sunday obligation??


583 posted on 08/04/2004 9:16:32 AM PDT by pro Athanasius (Catholicism is not a "politically correct sound bite".)
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To: pro Athanasius
Traditional Catholics who want to go to an old Latin Mass are protected by Trent and Quo Primum - the indult was already given years ago the 1986 commission met of Nine cardinals met and said any priest could say it without a Bishops permission. They just doesn't want people to know because they want their Novus Ordo experiment to work.

The suppression of the Indult Masses is a terrible scandal. I find it odd that some of the same people pointing "schismatic" fingers also support keeping the Indult Masses as unknown and hidden as possible. There's nothing wrong with the old Mass. It is a glorious treasure of the church and the liturgy which inspired numerous saints and heroic champions of Christendom. It's a terrible scandal what wreckovating liberal modernists have done in the name of "the Spirit of Vatican II." They are the greatest danger to the church.

585 posted on 08/04/2004 9:28:52 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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