Sacred Scripture and Outside the Church There is NO Salvation

Catholic Family News ^ | June 2004 | Jacob Michael

[AskStPhilomena]

"No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is a dogma of our Faith - not a Feeneyite invention.
Having said that, you're quite right to point out problems with some of the Feeneyite interpretations.
Here is an article which addresses this issue in greater depth: http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr_feeney_catholic_doctrine.htm
Please note that even protestant baptisms may be valid:
Already in the 3rd century, the Church defined that the fact that it is a heretic who administers the sacrament of baptism does not make it invalid (Denziger, 110). The baptisms of Protestants are consequently to be considered valid, unless a reasonable and prudent doubt occurs as to a defect of the required matter, form or intention (Cf. Roman Ritual, Titulus II, Caput 3, §11 & 12).

[SoothingDave]

No tradition of any kind involved AT ALL.

LOL. Right. I'll take that as a "no, I can't defend my position logically." That's OK. There really is no way to do it.

No tradition at all. Very funny.

SD

[Fifthmark]

I asked you what he was referring to. You respond with questions. It sounds as though your "start" might have been a little rough.

[Quix]

Have you been to China?

Have you talked to one individual, much less a group of new Chinese underground Christians?

NO TRADITIONS

AT ALL.

Very simple.

I'm sorry it's too much for you to wrap your understanding around.

Sounds like you have CPFRTS--Chronic Pharisaical Fossilized Roman Traditions Syndrome.

It tends to cloud the mind and prevent spontaneity and RELATIONSHIP directly with God Almighty and Jesus our Lord, much more so following Holy Spirit's moment by moment guidance

. . . OUTSIDE the tidy little [from God's perspective] Roman box.

I'm grieved that you really are having trouble wrapping your understanding around such a simple fact that

millions of Chinese underground Christians are growing marvelously close to God and bringing others into The Church Universal daily with many miracles confirming

WITHOUT A SINGLE TRADITION rearing it's head as authority or law--or as anything else--just not there.

Now, sadly, a year and a half from their new Christian beginnings, they'll have formed their own traditions or been burdened down with those from other 'generous pharisees.' But initially,

NO

TRADITIONS--AS IN NONE.

You are aware of the number in the middle between -1 and +1? A marvelous little number.

In this case, it quite accurately represents the number of traditions these precious Chinese saints are aware of or bother with:

---

0.00

---

Mind boggling for Romans, I know.

There, there now. The medicine cabinet is not far away.

[Fifthmark]

...TO THE AVOIDANCE OF RELIGION!

God wants us to avoid religion? Then why would St. James exhort us to avoid self-deception and practice a "religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father" (i.27)?

[Quix]

Actually, no.

My start was not that rough. Heard the word.

Holy Spirit drew me to The Lord, The Father.

I responded in faith according to The Word.

Pretty simple, really. Majestic, wonderous, awesome etc. that God would reach down to man etc.

But simple in principle and in walking it out--initially--starting out.

[conservonator]

Assumptions are hazardous.

Yep.

[Quix]

Is Jame's 'religion'

REALLY

the kind of religion you see so spread abroad so widely, entrenched-ly, oppressively, rigidly, fossilized-ly

in the Roman AND protestant congregations????

What planet are you on?

I've found that kind of earnest, authentic, straightforward, simple, Biblical 'religion'

rather hard to find in any congregation--a bit like finding the one honest man.

RELATIONSHIP is

GOD'S FOCUS

NOT religion.

I think even The Scriptures are rather clear about that. Certainly many choose to ignore such verses in Scripture that make my point rather clearly. But they are there. Wise people heed them.

[conservonator]

You confuse Tradition with tradition and dogma with discipline. A common mistake. Your go-it-alone style of Christianity is at odds with Scripture and Tradition and hence at odds with the wishes of Christ.

[SoothingDave]

Have you talked to one individual, much less a group of new Chinese underground Christians?

NO TRADITIONS AT ALL.

Very simple.

Did their Bibles arrive by airdrop or what?

SD

[Fifthmark]

If you do not hold the Traditions of the Apostles, then you are not a Christian and should be avoided.

"And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us." (2 Thes. iii.6)

[Quix]

No. I think you are confused.

I'm not confused about the phenomenon nor the term.

Nor am I confused about what Christ delights in.

The Sermon On The Mount is a good place to start

IF YOU are confused about such things.

No! I didn't say Christians were to go their walk alone. The Bible clearly says to avoid not assembling together.

BUT CHRIST WAS REPEATEDLY HOSTILE ABOUT RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OF MEN.

Have you really read the NT? I'm shocked you'd have missed those verses.

They aren't that difficult to understand.

Actually, I'd go so far as to say that

the Roman traditions of men alone

and

the Protestant traditions of men alone

have done more to doom more people to hell than all the traditions of the pharisees of Jesus time--against which Christ railed so vehemently.

Are you happy about that? Are you smug and self-righteous about that?

I sure hope not!

[Quix]

I try to speak from extensive observations, primarily.

And have, in this thread.

[conservonator]

Quix, you practice a religion of your own making: it is a man made thing. It is not based on Scripture but on your interpretation of Scripture. You interpretation of Scripture is flawed and therefore your ability to follow the teachings of Christ are flawed, and not just because we are all sinners but because the "map" you have created is defective. This is one of the reasons Christ left us with a visible Church: it serves to ensure that we know the TRUTH of Christ, not a Shadow of the truth borne out of individual interpretation. Why you or anyone who desires to serve Christ chooses to do so on their terms rather than His is beyond my comprehension.

Oh you post makes it painfully clear that you don't understand the concept of tradition vs Tradition. Go Here and Here for a better understanding of what Tradition is.

[Quix]

HOGWASH

Certainly my map is not flawLESS because I'm human.

But for all intents and purposes, you are as wrong as can be.

My walk with God is a precious, intimate, intense, VERY BIBLICAL thing.

And, mercifully, HE has finally placed me again in a good local congregation with a good Pastor.

In terms of tradition--

I don't have any evidence that

YOU

KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.

It SEEMS pretty clear which one most Romans are following. I don't have sufficient data about you, yet. But your words are worrisome. It appears that you are as addicted to deadly traditions of men, to RELIGION as much as any Roman or Protestant I've ever come across.

Sigh.

[armydoc]

How about an experiment to examine the validity of a Catholic dogma:

If a piece of bread is consecrated by a Catholic Priest, thus becoming literally the body of Christ, will it ever subsequently suffer corruption (decay)? Of course it will.

[conservonator]

Did you even read the links?

Or did you just decide that your interpretation of what you haven't yet read is as valid as you interpretation of what you have read?

Either way I leave you with this.

May God bless and guide you, and all that seek Him, to the security of His Church.

[Quester]

“He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.” (Luke 11:23)

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Seems that what's important is being with Jesus, as opposed to being with the Catholic Church.

[Quix]

TAKING SCRIPTURE AT FACE VALUE

AND

SIMPLY DOING IT.

IS HARDLY practicing anything of my own making.

I realize God's simplicity sometimes escapes us in the complexities of reality and life.

But the basics are rather straightforward.

As CHRIST SAID:

LOVE GOD WHOLLY.
LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF.
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU'D HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

Therein lies the whole law [and any worthy 'traditions']

Chinese have been finding this so by the millions.

Too bad so many Romans and Protestants of every stripe are still stuck in fossilized traditions of men to the grief to anger of The Father, The Son and The Spirit.

Part of even you

KNOWS

that

but refuses to admit it because you instinctively know God would then demand change on your part. And your security and comfort zones are all wrapped up in the your RELIGIOUS STATUS QUO.

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

There is only one Church founded, ONE, one faith, one baptism, one Shepherd. one flock. To deviate form this One True Church in favor on one of your own making is an act of disobedience that separates you from Him.

There is only one Church and it belongs to Christ. Everyone who is born of the Spirit belongs to His Church, some might even be Roman Catholics in it too.