Posted on 05/27/2004 7:10:58 AM PDT by AskStPhilomena
"No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is a dogma of our Faith - not a Feeneyite invention.
Having said that, you're quite right to point out problems with some of the Feeneyite interpretations.
Here is an article which addresses this issue in greater depth: http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr_feeney_catholic_doctrine.htm
Please note that even protestant baptisms may be valid:
Already in the 3rd century, the Church defined that the fact that it is a heretic who administers the sacrament of baptism does not make it invalid (Denziger, 110). The baptisms of Protestants are consequently to be considered valid, unless a reasonable and prudent doubt occurs as to a defect of the required matter, form or intention (Cf. Roman Ritual, Titulus II, Caput 3, §11 & 12).
LOL. Right. I'll take that as a "no, I can't defend my position logically." That's OK. There really is no way to do it.
No tradition at all. Very funny.
SD
I asked you what he was referring to. You respond with questions. It sounds as though your "start" might have been a little rough.
Have you been to China?
Have you talked to one individual, much less a group of new Chinese underground Christians?
NO TRADITIONS
AT ALL.
Very simple.
I'm sorry it's too much for you to wrap your understanding around.
Sounds like you have CPFRTS--Chronic Pharisaical Fossilized Roman Traditions Syndrome.
It tends to cloud the mind and prevent spontaneity and RELATIONSHIP directly with God Almighty and Jesus our Lord, much more so following Holy Spirit's moment by moment guidance
. . . OUTSIDE the tidy little [from God's perspective] Roman box.
I'm grieved that you really are having trouble wrapping your understanding around such a simple fact that
millions of Chinese underground Christians are growing marvelously close to God and bringing others into The Church Universal daily with many miracles confirming
WITHOUT A SINGLE TRADITION rearing it's head as authority or law--or as anything else--just not there.
Now, sadly, a year and a half from their new Christian beginnings, they'll have formed their own traditions or been burdened down with those from other 'generous pharisees.' But initially,
NO
TRADITIONS--AS IN NONE.
You are aware of the number in the middle between -1 and +1? A marvelous little number.
In this case, it quite accurately represents the number of traditions these precious Chinese saints are aware of or bother with:
God wants us to avoid religion? Then why would St. James exhort us to avoid self-deception and practice a "religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father" (i.27)?
Actually, no.
My start was not that rough. Heard the word.
Holy Spirit drew me to The Lord, The Father.
I responded in faith according to The Word.
Pretty simple, really. Majestic, wonderous, awesome etc. that God would reach down to man etc.
But simple in principle and in walking it out--initially--starting out.
Yep.
Is Jame's 'religion'
REALLY
the kind of religion you see so spread abroad so widely, entrenched-ly, oppressively, rigidly, fossilized-ly
in the Roman AND protestant congregations????
What planet are you on?
I've found that kind of earnest, authentic, straightforward, simple, Biblical 'religion'
rather hard to find in any congregation--a bit like finding the one honest man.
RELATIONSHIP is
GOD'S FOCUS
NOT religion.
I think even The Scriptures are rather clear about that. Certainly many choose to ignore such verses in Scripture that make my point rather clearly. But they are there. Wise people heed them.
NO TRADITIONS AT ALL.
Very simple.
Did their Bibles arrive by airdrop or what?
SD
If you do not hold the Traditions of the Apostles, then you are not a Christian and should be avoided.
"And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us." (2 Thes. iii.6)
No. I think you are confused.
I'm not confused about the phenomenon nor the term.
Nor am I confused about what Christ delights in.
The Sermon On The Mount is a good place to start
IF YOU are confused about such things.
No! I didn't say Christians were to go their walk alone. The Bible clearly says to avoid not assembling together.
BUT CHRIST WAS REPEATEDLY HOSTILE ABOUT RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS OF MEN.
Have you really read the NT? I'm shocked you'd have missed those verses.
They aren't that difficult to understand.
Actually, I'd go so far as to say that
the Roman traditions of men alone
and
the Protestant traditions of men alone
have done more to doom more people to hell than all the traditions of the pharisees of Jesus time--against which Christ railed so vehemently.
Are you happy about that? Are you smug and self-righteous about that?
I sure hope not!
I try to speak from extensive observations, primarily.
And have, in this thread.
Oh you post makes it painfully clear that you don't understand the concept of tradition vs Tradition. Go Here and Here for a better understanding of what Tradition is.
HOGWASH
Certainly my map is not flawLESS because I'm human.
But for all intents and purposes, you are as wrong as can be.
My walk with God is a precious, intimate, intense, VERY BIBLICAL thing.
And, mercifully, HE has finally placed me again in a good local congregation with a good Pastor.
In terms of tradition--
I don't have any evidence that
YOU
KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
It SEEMS pretty clear which one most Romans are following. I don't have sufficient data about you, yet. But your words are worrisome. It appears that you are as addicted to deadly traditions of men, to RELIGION as much as any Roman or Protestant I've ever come across.
Sigh.
How about an experiment to examine the validity of a Catholic dogma:
If a piece of bread is consecrated by a Catholic Priest, thus becoming literally the body of Christ, will it ever subsequently suffer corruption (decay)? Of course it will.
Or did you just decide that your interpretation of what you haven't yet read is as valid as you interpretation of what you have read?
Either way I leave you with this.
May God bless and guide you, and all that seek Him, to the security of His Church.
He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth. (Luke 11:23)Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.Seems that what's important is being with Jesus, as opposed to being with the Catholic Church.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
TAKING SCRIPTURE AT FACE VALUE
AND
SIMPLY DOING IT.
IS HARDLY practicing anything of my own making.
I realize God's simplicity sometimes escapes us in the complexities of reality and life.
But the basics are rather straightforward.
As CHRIST SAID:
LOVE GOD WHOLLY.
LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF.
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU'D HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
Therein lies the whole law [and any worthy 'traditions']
Chinese have been finding this so by the millions.
Too bad so many Romans and Protestants of every stripe are still stuck in fossilized traditions of men to the grief to anger of The Father, The Son and The Spirit.
Part of even you
KNOWS
that
but refuses to admit it because you instinctively know God would then demand change on your part. And your security and comfort zones are all wrapped up in the your RELIGIOUS STATUS QUO.
There is only one Church and it belongs to Christ. Everyone who is born of the Spirit belongs to His Church, some might even be Roman Catholics in it too.
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