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MARIAN DEVOTION - Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God
Various ^

Posted on 05/03/2004 8:48:00 AM PDT by NYer

Akathist Hymn
to the Mother of God


 

Kontakion
To you, / powerful Queen and Ruler,
we sing/ this song of praise to you, Mother of God.
Since you/ have unconquerable power,
Protect us/ from all danger so that we may sing to you:
Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden - ever-pure!

 

Ode 1

From the Soul
An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words:

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Knowing that she was pure, the most blessed Virgin quickly answered Gabriel saying: "My soul is unable to understand Your mysterious words. How is it, that you speak of a birth that is to come from a conception without seed, and sing: Alleluia?"

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 2

From the Soul
Trying to grasp the meaning of this mystery, the Virgin asked the holy messenger of God: "How is it possible that a son be born of a virginal womb? Tell me." But instead he answered her with great awe, crying out in these words:

Rejoice, Hidden secret of God's ineffable Plan!
Rejoice, for you believed in the Mystery unrevealed!
Rejoice, for you are the beginning of the miracles of Christ!
Rejoice, for you are the crown of the truths concerning Him!

Rejoice, O heavenly Ladder, by which God came down!
Rejoice, O Bridge, leading those on earth to heaven!
Rejoice, O Miracle, most-wondrous to the angels!
Rejoice, O Wound, bewailed by the demons!

Rejoice, for you gave birth to the glorious Light!
Rejoice, for you did not revel how it was done!
Rejoice, for you surpass the wisdom of the wise!
Rejoice, for you enlighten the minds of the faithful!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When the power of the Most High overshadowed the one who is blessed among women, her fruitful womb conceived. She became for all a wondrous field — for those who wish to reap salvation while singing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 3

From the Soul
Bearing God in her womb the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth, whose unborn child immediately recognized her greeting and rejoiced. Leaping up as if in song, he cried out to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Vine, bearing the unfolding Bloom!
Rejoice, O Land, who bears immortal Fruit!
Rejoice, O you, who cared for the Lover of mankind!
Rejoice, O you, who gave birth to the Giver of life!

Rejoice, O Field, bearing a wealth of compassion!
Rejoice, O Table, laden with gifts of mercy!
Rejoice, for you make Paradise blossom in beauty again!
Rejoice, for you prepare a haven for our souls!

Rejoice, most pleasing Incense of intercession!
Rejoice, Offering for the whole world!
Rejoice, good will of God unto all mankind
Rejoice, Confidence of all before God.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Joseph, a righteous man, was overcome by doubt and contradiction. He feared that You, all-blameless One, had been deluded by someone until he learned that Your conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 4

From the Soul
The Shepherds heard the angels singing hymns of praise to Christ, who had come to earth in human flesh. They hurried to Him as would the flock to its Master and upon seeing God as the spotless Lamb nurtured from the womb of Mary, they greeted her saying:

Rejoice, Mother of the Lamb and the Shepherd!
Rejoice, Fold of spiritual lambs!
Rejoice, Protection against invisible foes!
Rejoice, Key to the doors of Paradise!

Rejoice, for the heavens rejoice with the earth!
Rejoice, for the earth sings praise with the heavens!
Rejoice, unceasing glory of the Apostles!
Rejoice, unconquerable courage of the Martyrs!

Rejoice, O firm foundation of faith!
Rejoice, O radiant recognition of grace!
Rejoice, O you through whom hell was stripped bare!
Rejoice, O you through whom we are clothed with glory.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When they saw God's wondrous Star, the Magi followed its glittering light as they would a beacon, in search of a mighty King. And having found Him, they drew near the unapproachable One, rejoicing and exclaiming: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 5

 From the Soul
When the sons of Chaldea beheld in the hands of the Virgin, Him, the Creator, who had fashioned mankind by His own Hand, they recognized in Him their Master, even though He had come as a tiny Babe. And so they hastened to honour Him with gifts and to the greet the most-blessed of all women:

Rejoice, O Mother of the never-setting Star!
Rejoice, O Dawn of the Mystic day!
Rejoice, O you, who quenched the furnace of error,
Rejoice, O you, who guard the disciples of the Holy Trinity!

Rejoice, for you banished from power the merciless tyrant!
Rejoice, for you made manifest Christ the Lord, the Lover of Mankind,
Rejoice, for you have delivered us from pagan worship!
Rejoice, for you freed us from unclean deeds.

Rejoice, O you who suppressed the worship of fire!
Rejoice, O you who quench the flames of the passions!
Rejoice, O Guide of the faithful towards wisdom!
Rejoice, O Joy of all generations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Having fulfilled Your prophecy, O Lord, the Magi returned to Babylon as God-bearing heralds. They preached to all and witnessed to You as the Christ, leaving Herod behind as a fool, who could not sing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 6

From the Soul
Illuminating Egypt with the light of Truth, You dispelled the darkness of sin and seduction, O Saviour. The idols of that land fell down, unable to withstand Your power and all who were delivered from them greeted the Mother of God:

Rejoice, elation of mankind!
Rejoice, downfall of the demons!
Rejoice, for you crushed the power of deceit!
Rejoice, for you exposed the fraud of idols!

Rejoice, for like the Red Sea, you have drowned the Pharaoh of duplicity!
Rejoice, for like the rock, you have given drink to those who thirst for life!
Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness!
Rejoice, Protection of the world, broader that the clouds!

Rejoice, O Successor to manna!
Rejoice, O Servant of the Banquet Divine!
Rejoice, O Promised Land!
Rejoice, Land of milk and honey!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When Simeon was soon to leave this deceitful world, You were brought to him as a Child. Taking You into his arms he recognized You as the true God, and marveling at Your ineffable wisdom, he cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 7

From the Soul
The Creator revealed a new creation when He came down to us, His creation. He came forth from a womb that had received no seed, preserving it intact as it was before, so that seeing this miracle we might sing to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Flower of incorruption!
Rejoice, O Garland of purity!
Rejoice, O you, who shine as a sign of the resurrection!
Rejoice, O you, who reveal the life of the angels!

Rejoice, Tree of good fruit from which the faithful feed!
Rejoice, shady Glen where many find shelter!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Saviour of the captives!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Leader for the lost!

Rejoice, Intercessor before the Just Judge!
Rejoice, Forgiveness of many sins!
Rejoice, Hope of the hopeless!
Rejoice, Tenderness beyond all expectations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Seeing this miraculous birth, let us become strangers to the world and fix our minds on Heaven. Indeed, it is for this reason that the God Most-High appeared on earth: e became a humble man, desiring to draw up to heaven all those who cry out to Him: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 8

 From the Soul
The Word unfathomed was wholly present here below, yet in no way absent from the realm on high. For this was a Divine Descent and not a change of place. His birth was from a Virgin who received God, as she heard these words:

Rejoice, Vessel of the uncontainable God!
Rejoice, Gate of Solemn Mystery!
Rejoice, Unheard Message for unbelievers!
Rejoice, highest Praise of the faithful!

Rejoice, most holy chariot of Him, who rides upon the Cherubim!
Rejoice, most glorious Dwelling of the One above the Seraphim!
Rejoice, O you, who joined opposites!
Rejoice O you, who united virginity and motherhood!

Rejoice, O you, through whom sin was absolved!
Rejoice, O you, through whom paradise was re-opened!
Rejoice, Key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, Hope of eternal blessing!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
All the angelic hosts were amazed at Your Incarnation, for they saw God, Whom no one can approach, as a man, approachable by all. He came to dwell among us and He heard from all: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 9

From the Soul
Worldly speakers become mute as fish before you, O Mother of God, for they are at a loss to say how you remained a virgin and yet were able to bear a child. As for us, while marveling at this mystery, we cry out to you with faith:

Rejoice, Vessel of the Wisdom of God!
Rejoice, Treasury of His Providence!
Rejoice, Reproof of foolish philosophers!
Rejoice, for the eloquent become speechless before you!

Rejoice, for the clever have made fools of themselves!
Rejoice, for the myth-makers have been silenced!
Rejoice, for you dispelled the Athenian snares!
Rejoice, for you filled the nets of the fishermen!

Rejoice, O you, who draw us from the depths of ignorance!
Rejoice, O Lamplight of understanding to many!
Rejoice, O Ship, for all who seek salvation!
Rejoice, O Harbour, in the voyage of life!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
Wishing to save the world, the Creator of all came to us as He had promised. Being our God and our Shepherd, out of love for us He took flesh and appeared to all. As man - he called out to all mankind; and as God - he heard from us: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 10

From the Soul
O Virgin, Mother of God, you are the strength of virgins and of all those who take refuge in you. For the Creator of heaven and earth gave you to be our Protectress, O Pure One. He dwelt in your womb and taught all to cry out to you:

Rejoice, Pillar of virginity!
Rejoice, Gate of salvation!
Rejoice, Leader of spiritual renewal!
Rejoice, Bestower of God's grace!

Rejoice, for you restore those conceived in sin!
Rejoice, for you counsel those lost in their understanding!
Rejoice, for you stopped the corrupter of hearts!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Sower of Chastity!

Rejoice, bridal Chamber of a betrothal without seed!
Rejoice, for you joined the faithful to their Lord!
Rejoice, gracious Mother of virgins!
Rejoice, Bridal escort of Holy souls!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
The greatest song of praise cannot compare with the multitude of Your mercies, O Holy King! We could sing to You as many songs as there are grains of sand, and yet do nothing worthy of what You have given to us, who cry out to You: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 11

From the Heart
We see the holy Virgin as a light-bearing lamp, appearing to those who live in darkness. For she is the one who kindled the immaterial Light, and now, she leads all mankind to the knowledge of God. She fills ours minds with radiance and is worthy of being praised in these words:

Rejoice, Ray of the Living Sun!
Rejoice, Radiance, unfading in splendor!
Rejoice, Lightning-flash that enlightens our souls!
Rejoice, Thunder-clap, that strikes down all foes!

Rejoice, for you caused the many-starred Light to dawn,
Rejoice, for you caused the ever-flowing River to spring,
Rejoice, Icon of the baptismal font,
Rejoice, for you wash away the stain of sin!

Rejoice, flowing water, that cleanses the conscience!
Rejoice, holy Vessel, overflowing with joy!
Rejoice, Fragrance of the sweetness Christ!
Rejoice, Life of the Mystical Banquet!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
The Lord, who settles all men's scores, desired to make right the ancient debts by means of grace. He came of His own will to those who had fallen from His grace and He tore up the record of their wrong-doings. From all He hears: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 12

From the Soul
As we sing of Your childbirth, we praise you as the living Temple, O Mother of God. For the Lord, Who holds all things in His Hand made His dwelling in Your womb. He hallowed and He glorified You, teaching all to sing to You:

Rejoice, O Tabernacle of God the Word!
Rejoice, O Holy One, greater than the Holies!
Rejoice, O Ark, made golden by the Spirit!
Rejoice, O inexhaustible Treasury of life!

Rejoice, precious Crown of pious Kings!
Rejoice, sacred glory of reverent priests!
Rejoice, invincible tower of the Church!
Rejoice, indestructible Wall of the kingdom!

Rejoice, O you, through whom Victory is assured!
Rejoice, O you, through whom enemies are cast down!
Rejoice, O Healing of my body!
Rejoice, O Salvation of my soul!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Kontakion
O Mother worthy of all praise;
you who have given birth to the Word,
the Holiest of the Holy,
accept this present offering, deliver us from all affliction,
and save from the future punishment those who cry out to you:
Alleluia!

  

Final Ode

From the Soul
To you, O powerful Queen and Ruler, we sing this song of praise to you, Mother of God. Since you have unconquerable power, protect us from all danger so that we may sing to you: Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words :

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Prayer to the Mother of God

All: O Most Holy Sovereign Lady and Mother of God, powerful to all good, receive from your unworthy servants this praiseworthy hymn, which is due to you alone, for you have been chosen from among the human race and are higher than all celestial and earthly creatures. For through you, our Almighty Lord has dwelt among us; through you, we have come to know the Son of God and are honoured to have his Most Holy Body and Most Precious Blood. Thus you are blessed among all generations.

You are higher in honour than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious that the Seraphim. O most-honourable and most holy Mother of God, do not cease to pray for us today, your unworthy servants, so that we may be protected against the guile of the evil one; from his greediness; and that we be delivered unharmed from the his deadly temptations.

Protect us with your prayer until the end of our life and before the eternal judgment; that we, being saved by your help and intercession, might give glory, praise, thanksgiving and honour for all, to the Holy Trinity, One God and Creator of all creatures, now and always and forever. Amen.

 

Dismissal

Priest: Wisdom!

All: Higher in honour than the Cherubim* and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.* Who a virgin, gave birth to the Word of God,* you truly are the Mother of God and we praise you!

Priest: Glory to You, Christ God, Our Hope, glory to You!

All: †Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now, and forever, and unto ages of ages. Amen. Lord, have mercy (3). Give the blessing!

Priest: May Christ our True God, through the prayers of his most pure Mother and those all the Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for he is good and the Lover of mankind.

All: Amen.

 

Rejoice Virgin Mary

Rejoice Virgin Mary, Full of Grace!
O Theotokos, the Lord is with you!
Blessed are you among women!
and blessed is the fruit of your womb:
For you have given birth,
to the Saviour of our souls (2).


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Worship
KEYWORDS: marianism; maryworship
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To: Gotterdammerung
*****"The woman in Revelation is Israel "***

That is what I have always believed also. Never occurred to me to think of her as anything else actually. It is amazing to read the different ways people think about the Scriptures. We get locked in our own Church worldviews and never know there are so many who see things so differently. Gotta love FR!

81 posted on 05/03/2004 5:54:55 PM PDT by ladyinred (Kerry has more flip flops than Waikiki Beach)
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To: sartorius
This sort of typology would only appeal to protestants of the dispensationalist stripe.

Rather than isolate a bunch of Scriptures and decimate them with wildly unsupported interpretations, I would suggest you demonstrate, by carefully comparing Scripture with Scripture, how Mary MUST be understood in all these passages.

Frankly, it is not obvious to those us us not indoctrinated in RC dogma.
82 posted on 05/03/2004 6:22:42 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
At least we are consistent in not worshipping the opinions of men with they contradict, or are at best unsupported by Scripture.
83 posted on 05/03/2004 6:29:27 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Thank you all for the interesting threads. Can I say though that I am either not intelligent enough to see how this is fundamental to Christ and His ministry on earth, or intelligent enough to know that Christians should discuss these issues but they should never separate us. I mean, does my salvation depend upon how I view Mary, or does it depend upon how I view Jesus? Again thank you all.
84 posted on 05/03/2004 7:36:50 PM PDT by freebush (Why should I care?)
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Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

Comment #86 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
I totally respect that, but I just wanted to know an honest answer to the question I posed. I have no problem with the idea of Mary as portrayed, I just wanted to know from the your viewpoint if salvation depends on your interpretation of Mary. I mean no disrespect.
87 posted on 05/03/2004 8:11:23 PM PDT by freebush (Why should I care?)
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

To: topcat54
At least we are consistent in not worshipping the opinions of men…

By "we" here I infer you're not including the "protestants of the dispensationalist stripe" in your previous post.

Which others would you include in the "we?" Calvinists, Arminians, for example?

If they disagree on what scripture supports, wouldn't one or the other have to contradict ("or at best [be] unsupported by) scripture?

89 posted on 05/03/2004 9:18:02 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: NYer
Nice of you to post that, though I like the translations in the Old Jordanville Prayerbook (found at Fr. John Whiteford's website) and in the The Great Horologion published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery better.
90 posted on 05/03/2004 9:44:59 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (XC is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!)
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To: sartorius; topcat54
"If this is true, that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, then she must have been pure, and could not have any sin on her soul. The fact that Mary was born without original sin has been a clear teaching of not only the Catholic Church, but of the founders of Protestantism as well."

There is a flaw in your argument. Original sin is passed on through the race of Adam. It is inherited. Since Mary was part of the race of Adam she too inherited original sin.

If Mary did not have original sin there would have been no need for a virgin birth since it would mean original sin must be picked up some other way besides birth. Consequently, our Lord Jesus could have just been born the normal fashion and not have original sin. No need for the virgin birth.

I think you also make to much of the comparison of the Ark of the Covenant and Mary. The Ark was a symbol for the people of Israel that God was with them-that's all. When they acted badly the Ark was meaningless (1 Samuel 4).

There is a certain irony in your comparison for the people of Israel tended to worshipped the created rather than the Creator. The Ark is one example. The serpent on the brazen stick is another. We should hold Mary in high regards like Esther, Ruth, Paul, Peter, etc. But to worship Mary is equivalent, to use your analogy, to worshipping the Ark or brazen serpent.

I'm not sure what the Reformers positions were about Mary and sin but if they held Mary was sinless this is contrary to what the Bible says and they were wrong. This shouldn't come as a shock to you since you feel they were in error in other places where they ARE supported by scriptures.

91 posted on 05/04/2004 4:28:13 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
So who cares what the bible says, we'll just drop the names of all the important people that believe that. I sure don't think Paul or Peter or John or Jesus believed in those things about Mary. Otherwise, you'd think they'd have mentioned it.
92 posted on 05/04/2004 5:31:39 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: dangus
The 3 1/2 years certainly brings the tribulation to mind but I'm not very strong on the Egypt part.
93 posted on 05/04/2004 5:32:54 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
"And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus." Luke 1:30-31

Yes, certainly. Though not necessarily her egg. Otherwise there would have been no need for Jesus to have said what He said of John.

94 posted on 05/04/2004 5:34:25 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Mother of my Lord is one thing but mother of God is quite another. It leads us to the pure scatoloty that started this post. Worship.
95 posted on 05/04/2004 5:36:42 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
I will give you credit for this. You are the first person on this forum I have ever seen admit that Sola Scripture is not scriptural (in that, there is no verse that explicity states that). That took guts, while I disagree with a lot of what you have posted today, I applaud you for your candor on that admission. God Bless

I've had enough people demand verses from me only to throw them back in my face to realize that people want their very own name in the bible in order to believe it's speaking to them. I met a gay guy at a bar the other day and discussed the bible with him. He said "I think the bible is not meant to be taken that literally". I have no doubt that I could have shown him Romans 1 and 2 and he would have tried to slither away form what it said about homos too. I also know people who hate the very word Trinity and since it's not in the bible, it can't be true.

96 posted on 05/04/2004 5:42:13 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: seamole
You're still having trouble reconciling yourself to the fact that there is no closer relationship than between a mother and a child.

How 'bout the relationship between God the Father and God the Son?

So how would Mary achieve and maintain a state of grace during her pregnancy ...

It seems to me that that is a matter for God, since He is the one who bestows grace and maintains us in our condition. The declaration of the angel, the messenger of God, was that she was presetnly in the proper relationship to God.

I'm not sure why you are stuggling with this fact. Your problem is that you place the burden on Mary to maintain her condition. That is one of the more pernicious errors of RC theology.

No, we know of no sin committed by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We know of no explicit sin of lots of folks in the Bible. What does that prove? Was Stephen, for example, immaculately conceived?

Of course the controlling text that Mary devotees are unable to deal with honestly is Rom. 3:23.

When you get to Heaven, how are you going to explain to Him your trash-talking His mother?

Since I have said nothing about His mother than is not recorded in the Bible I have no concerns in this area. I would be more concerned about the possibility of elevating her to a position (co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all grace) unsupported in the Bible that undermines the worship due to God alone as RCs are prone to do in their practical experiences. Y'all do have a problem with your Mary cults.

97 posted on 05/04/2004 6:00:56 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD
I'm not sure what the Reformers positions were about Mary and sin but if they held Mary was sinless this is contrary to what the Bible says and they were wrong.

I do not believe any of the Reformers held Mary to be sinless (i.e., superhuman). Some of them, like Luther and Calvin, held to the extant view of Mary's virginity, and that the "brethren" of Jesus were cousins or some relative other than half-brothers.

Luther, for example, made rash statements such as, "Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." A bloodless birth?? Perhaps, too, a bloodless circumcision eight days later. The problem is, when you study the Reformers you find no Scriptural support for their wild suggestions. They were men, prone to error, as all men are. Let's not make them out to be protestant popes. That's why we can only trust Scripture alone as the ultimate arbiter of divine truth.

I do not believe they had any good theological reasons for maintaining that view. And remember that they lived long before the extreme beliefs of modern RCism on things like the immaculate conception and assumption were codified by the RCs.

The errors they were dealing with in the church were much more grave than devotion to Mary, although one might argument that Mary devotion was a symptom of the larger problem. They may have a different view if they had witnessed the extremes of Mariology in modern times.

98 posted on 05/04/2004 6:57:41 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: D-fendr
By "we" here I infer you're not including the "protestants of the dispensationalist stripe" in your previous post.

Perhaps. It does remind me of the time when I was a new Christian and attended a Bible study with some friends. One of the participants was commenting on some text and reading from the Bible in his hand. I could not find the verse he was reading in the version I was using, so I turned to the person next to me for help. I turned out the person was actually reading from the notes in his Scofield Bible as if they were the very Word of God.

Some men's popes don't live in Rome, but down the street in their local church, or on the radio dial, on in their libraries.

If they disagree on what scripture supports, wouldn't one or the other have to contradict ("or at best [be] unsupported by) scripture?

Absolutely. As they say, if we disagree on a text we can't both be right, but we can certainly both be wrong. Popes, bishops, pastors, teachers, reformers, churchmen of all types suffer from the same affliction. It's called imperfection. If we were omniscient we would be God.

99 posted on 05/04/2004 7:07:21 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: HarleyD
If Christ was not truly human then He did not really save us because He was of a different nature from us. To say that he merely passed through Mary as water passes through a channel is gross heresy, and invalidates the Incarnation. It makes Him out to be of flesh different from ours, and thus of a different sort than us: if He is not truly 'born of a woman', like us, then He is not truly man, at least not like us. Christ truly came into the human race.

The reality of Christ's humanity is one of the most important points of Christian doctrine. Remember what St. John said: the one who denies that Christ is come in the flesh is Anti-Christ. Heresies about Christ's humanity have plagued the Church since the time of the Apostles: in one way or another, different people have sought to disconnect the Lord from our humanity. It is a grievous error.

The wonder of the Incarnation is that Christ fully assumed human nature. Mary truly is Theotokos, because God did not become human merely in semblance. He did not spurn having a human mother, from whom He truly inherited genetic material. He took on a fully human nature, perfectly and indivisibly united to His divinity, in one person. In so doing He broguht salvation to man, by turning the direction of man back to God. As a man, beset by our weaknesses, He overcame temptation and struck down sin and death. Becasue He was man He was able to assume the curse we had brought down upon oursevles: but when He did so He dealt an end to it. As a man He was able to die: but in so doing He destroyed death. As a man prone to weakness He could be tempted by the devil: but He conquered over him.

100 posted on 05/04/2004 7:14:45 AM PDT by Cleburne
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