Posted on 04/21/2004 4:32:43 AM PDT by ksen
"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. "I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....
"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)
The verse itself spells out the "unforgivable sin" - namely, that it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. More specifically, the context is the Pharisees' accusations that the Holy Spirit and His work were actually works of Satan. This would be your "unforgivable sin", or at very least the "gateway sin" heading towards it.
Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29, and I John 5:16-17 provide further illumination of what constitutes an "unforgivable sin".
Note that, in every case cited, the verses point out that the sin will not be forgiven (i.e. forgiveness is refused), not that it can not be covered by Christ's blood (meaning His blood comes up short). What's worth pointing out is that if Brigham's assertion in the thread's article is true, said sins are ACTUALLY FORGIVABLE, contrary to the Scriptures, IF the guilty party sheds his OWN blood for them.
Well then I guess Moses and David and Paul are in big trouble. Which level of hell is reserved for them? Or are they just precluded from becoming Gods?
I'm sure it was used again the next day. And again and again until it was eventually used for firewood or a battering ram. Even in Ancient times 300 pounds of lumber was not to be discarded. It wasn't lost. It was recycled.
The shedding of innocent blood, as in murder. Only current as in Utah allows for firing squad for the death penalty
Just in case no one reads the longer post above!
Your #1: Are there sins for which the Blood of Jesus is insufficient?
"Insufficient" is your word, and your strawman. You should ask the moderator to change the title to a truthful one.
D&C 29:17 And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent; for the cup of mine indignation is full; for behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not.
The Scriptures show that there are cases other than refusal to repent where His blood shall not cleanse them, cases of very serious sin as alluded to in other posts on this thread.
The Savior is omnipotent, and His atonement infinite:
Book of Mormon, Alma 34:11-12 (about 74 BC)
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
Your #19: The silence is deafening.
Let's not pretend that this is the only time this quote has ever been brought up here. I remind you of those previous discussions.
I also remind you that you have my witness, my testimony, which is what you may assume in my silence.
The Holy Spirit bears witness, and I bear witness, that the Lord Jesus Christ has sent true and living apostles and prophets to the earth in our day, has restored His ancient Church to the earth, and has named it The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Sorry, those verses say the sin against the Holy Spirit shall(or will) not be forgiven. It doesn't say that it cannot be forgiven.
Brigham says that there are sins(plural) that the blood of Christ is not sufficient payment for, instead the perpetrator's blood must be shed.
Do you have any explanation for this? Was Brigham speaking in his role as a prophet when he preached this?
Can you ask your friend where the Bible says the shedding of our own blood remits any type of sin? Thanks.
Is it considered Anti-Mormon to ask a question about Brigham Young's teachings?
Again the point is being danced around that Brigham, in the article at the top, explicitly says that there are sins for which the blood of Christ cannot atone. That is a big difference from saying the blood of Christ shall not atone for certain sins.
The sin of shedding innocent blood keeps getting brought up. Brigham says there are sins, plural, for which Christ's blood cannot atone. So what are the other sins?
Or was Brigham mistaken?
Let me also ask you what I asked ladyinred above, where in the Bible does it ever say that our own blood can be a sufficient atonement for anything?
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