Posted on 04/21/2004 4:32:43 AM PDT by ksen
"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world. "I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them....
"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)
Num. 11:
16 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
Num. 11:
24 ¶ And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
Num. 11:
25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Ezek. 8:
11 And there stood before them . seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
Luke 10:
17 ¶ And the . seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
The footnote does say, though, that somemanuscripts say "70." The KJV does just the reverse, listing "70" but adding a footnote that other versions say "72." So while "70" is not a number out of thin air, it's still an semi-arbitrary number.
As for your Numbers citation, The Church of Jesus Christ Former-Day Saints was not established at that time.
None of these numbers (or titles) were meant for institutionalization. Otherwise, where are the LDS prophetesses? (Judges 4:4; Luke 2:36; 2 Kings 22:14; Acts 21:9). Where are the LDS titled evangelists? (Eph. 4:11; Acts 21:8) Where are the LDS pastors? (Eph. 4:11)
Maybe quite a bit wasn't restored, after all.
If the LDS say they have restored the original church, and that things MUST be like the original (Heb. 8:5), then why does the LDS have stake presidents? High councilors? General authorities? Wards? Stakes? Unmarried 12-year-old deacons? (The Bible says deacons are must be the husbands of one wife--1 Tim. 3:12...married 12 year olds?). Can you tell me where any of these extra-biblical titles and groupings are based upon Scriptural revelation?
As for LDS apostles, Paul says 3 things "marks the true apostle" (2 Cor. 12:12)--and these 3 things are unfailing. Do all LDS apostles engage in a) Signs? B) Marvels? C) Miracles?
The problem is this: The Lord cannot be boxed in--just like miracles & signs & wonders cannot be institutionalized & delivered on demand according to constructed religious hierarchical structures.
All this time I thought were were such a deep thinker...at least you've tried to make everyone think you are. If you can be satisfied with a simple "map", you are indeed, a simpleton.
In your mind it is a simple thing to reduce thousands of years of a complex civilization, which to this day has defied nearly 200 years of "modern" scholars' attempts to explain its origins, or provide a consenus on who they are or were, into a "map"?
That you do not know who Michael Coe is tells me you are ill-prepared to discuss any aspect of Mayan archaeology with even an amateur arm-chair archaeologist such as myself.
There are several Mormon author's maps available in their books published on the subject of archaeology and the Book of Mormon, but none of them are likely to pass a sign-seeker's muster.
The New Testament map you mention has the advantage of having nearly constant contact with European "historians" since the Bible was made known to Europe, and even with that tremendous advantage, you still can't pinpoint Sodom and Gomorrah on that map, or find Jesus' tomb, or the stable he was born in, or with any degree of certainty, the exact location of his crucifixtion. Map indeed.
So now 'ole Joe's religion is just like every other Christian religion? The legions of dunder-headed critics that post their bile here regularly would disagree with your conclusion, as do I. The LDS religion is not like the self-proclaimed orthodox christianity (small c, intended), that much I agree with the dunder heads. It is the "orthodox" christianity that is not found in the bible. The Church as given by God to man, has been a more formal institution that you "free stylists" would like to admit. There was a definite structure, with officers, ordained to specific duties and a heirarchy of order to be followed, even since the time of Adam.
I agree, however, that despite not being an official spokesperson for the LDS Church, I nevertheless do speak for it by my actions.
And we couldn't have asked for a better, more authoritative spokesperson than yourself, Auntie.
Please do
And just what "evidence" would convince you?
As I have previously stated I do not think anything I provide will convince you sign-seekers. But, let's try a little test, I will provide what I think is adequate proof, and if there are open-minded individuals reading the thread we can take a vote as to who thinks the evidence is 1, Proof positive; 2, Convincing, but not absolute; 3, Worth further investigation; or 4, Not convinced, but would like to see more, and lastly, the one I predict you sanctimonious ones will choose, 5, Not convinced, I will burn in hell before I accept it.
By sincerely confessing the sin to Jesus and asking for forgiveness?
So now 'ole Joe's religion is just like every other Christian religion? The legions of dunder-headed critics that post their bile here regularly would disagree with your conclusion, as do I. The LDS religion is not like the self-proclaimed orthodox christianity (small c, intended), that much I agree with the dunder heads. It is the "orthodox" christianity that is not found in the bible.
I see.
One thing I have learned since coming over to the religion threads is that everybody says they have or are the original Church! :-)
Patience, patience. I don't have this stuff all typed up ahead of time, or get it from a canned source like many of you anti's do. I have to gather my data from many sources, type it into Word Perfect, and post it. It may take me a week because I have other things to do.
Can anyone provide instructions or a link on how to post a jpeg, bitmap, or other image file?
Ping to re-visit
I draw your attention to reply #55 from “White Mountain” a banned poster who sounds a lot like another poster with “mountain” in his screen name.
Noted. ;)
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