By What Authority? A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

LumenGentleman Apologetics ^ | Jacob Michael

[narses]

Ping. I am most interested in my friend DrSteve's educated responses. I hope he will ping as well others from the FR Protestant Caucus. I invite the Catholic Caucus to chiime in correcting errors in both the article and future posts as well.

[drstevej]

 

[GeronL]

So whats the freaking point??

[drstevej]

By what authority?

The Word of God.

[narses]

If I had an electronic version of Holy Water, I'd spray those pictures. What an unholy triumvirate. Nonetheless, they all had valid, licit Holy Orders (as did the Satanic Father Paul Shandley of current infamy and many others dating all the way back to JUDAS). While they are an ugly and rhetorically effective riposte, they actually are an illogical form of argument. It is a form of error in category -- essentially you appear to be arguing that, because some Men of the Cloth are evil (an unquestionable truth) AND because the examples you posit are Catholic, that therefore all men of the Cloth are equal. It could also be argued you are using both a non-sequiter and a straw man argument. Well done, but neither persuasive nor responsive. :)

[narses]

Very good. The article suggests two methods for His Word to be revealed to you -- by indirect appointment (the laying on of hands from a superior who has been called) or by a direct and miraculous intervention by God as in St. Paul's calling. Do you agree with the author on those two categories?

[GeronL]

Protestant churches and their pastors are not any less legitimate than the Catholic Church. To say so is really a form of bigotry.

[narses]

To ask for the authority given from God is not bigotry, but rather a critical, essential question. To cry "bigotry" instead of answering the arguments is illogical.

[GeronL]

The Council of the Cardinals is a higher power than the Pope in the Catholic Church?

I did not know that.

---

Unless you are trying to say that ONLY Catholics have a phone-line to GOD, which is bigotry.

[drstevej]

Kaspar and Mahony are Cardinals in full communion with the bishop of Rome. The point goes not only to their character but their continued presence in their office.

I did not add the oft posted picture of the present vicar kissing a Koran. I believe OP has made a persuasice argument for the blasphemy of such an action.

Judas laid no claim to be the vicar of Christ. Judas was denounced by Christ as a devil. The current vicar tolerates and appoints such men as pictured.

[drstevej]

***Do you agree with the author on those two categories?***

No. The qualifications for an elder are found in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. They include "hiusband of one wife." This is a qualificatio which is true of me and untrue of the three men I pictured.

[narses]

At the risk of being pedantic, you are still avoiding the question. You appear to be claiming that God could not have appointed the Pope, but you refuse to answer with any specificity what authority God has given non-Catholic pastors. I could post picture after picture of Tammy Faye Baker and her ilk, that wouldn't act to answer the question in any way. Moreover, I don't think you are claiming that the heresies and sins of Catholic prelates (and they have sinned and committed heresies for 2,000 years) are truly any different than the sins and heresies of varied Protestant pastors, are you?

[GeronL]

Job 32: 21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. 22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

What do you think that means?

[narses]

So a pastor MUST be a (forgive the gentle jibe) a "hiusband"? Do me a favor and post both those verses and how they relate to the verses cited in the article as qualifications.

[drstevej]

***Moreover, I don't think you are claiming that the heresies and sins of Catholic prelates (and they have sinned and committed heresies for 2,000 years) are truly any different than the sins and heresies of varied Protestant pastors, are you?***

Sinful and heretic pastors reject the authority of the Word of God. They abandon their authority.

[GeronL]

I am being consistant. I think a Seminary education and a good knowledge of the bible can be qualifications for being a Pastor or a Priest.

You appear to be claiming that God could not have appointed the Pope, but you refuse to answer with any specificity what authority God has given non-Catholic pastors

So does that mean the Council of Cardinals are GOD? =o)

[narses]

I think a Seminary education and a good knowledge of the bible can be qualifications for being a Pastor or a Priest.

So it is education alone that qualifies a pastor? What authority have you for such a statement?

So does that mean the Council of Cardinals are GOD? =o)

No, nor did I say so. They DO have an unbroken appointment via the laying on of hands (as specified in Scripture quoted in this article) from the Apostles appointed by God.

[drstevej]

I said elder (presbuteros) / bishop (episkpos).

Does John Paul II or Cardinals Kaspar, Mahomy or Ratzinger meet this qualification? They all take the title bishop.

Doe they have children who believe? That is another qualification?

[Maximilian]

Lately I've been reading some hard-core Calvinists. And I've noticed that they are coming across the same issue: what makes these "pastors" qualified to lead? There was an article recently with a title like "So you want to make a living at this business?" criticizing "pastors" as simply fellow church members and suggesting they make their livings as tent-makers the way St. Paul did.

The upshot of this way of thinking appears to me to be a trend towards "home church." They are rejecting the authority of the Church entirely. And I see this reflected on both sides of the divide, both from those who are staying home with their families on Sundays, and from those (Andrew Sandlin, Gary North come to mind) who are criticizing and opposing the anti-institutional trend.

I guess my point is that the issue of "By what authority?" is not being asked entirely from the outside, but is a hot-button issue right now internally within the Presbyterean fellowship and I assume within other denominations as well. Actually, these guys despise Baptists, and they especially despise the "profit oriented" preachers giving a Gospel of wealth and success. So if they have problems with authority in their own sect, they utterly reject the authority of most of their fellow protestant pastors.