Pastor and Flock Become Catholics

National Catholic Register ^ | April 2001 | Judy Roberts

[NYer]

DETROIT — When Detroit-born Alex Jones became a Pentecostal minister in 1972, there was little question among those who knew him that he was answering God’s call to preach.

Now, many of his friends and family have dismissed the 59-year-old pastor as an apostate for embracing the Catholic faith, closing the nondenominational church he organized in 1982, and taking part of his congregation with him.

At this year’s April 14 Easter Vigil, Jones, his wife, Donna, and 62 other former members of Detroit’s Maranatha Church, will be received into the Catholic Church during the Easter Vigil at St. Suzanne’s Parish here.

For Jones, becoming a Catholic will mark the end of a journey that began with the planting of a seed by Catholic apologist and Register columnist Karl Keating. It also will mean the beginning of a new way of life.

Jones first heard Keating, the founder of Catholic Answers, at a debate on whether the origins of the Christian church were Protestant or Catholic. At the close, Keating asked, “If something took place, who would you want to believe, those who saw it or those who came thousands of years later and told what happened?”

“Good point,” Jones thought, and tucked it away. Five years later, while he was reading about the church fathers, Keating’s question resurfaced. Jones began a study of the Church’s beginnings, sharing his newfound knowledge with his congregation.

To illustrate what he was talking about, in the spring of 1998 he re-enacted an early worship service, never intending to alter his congregation’s worship style. “But once I discovered the foundational truths and saw that Christianity was not the same as I was preaching, some fine-tuning needed to take place.”

Soon, Maranatha Church’s Sunday service was looking more like a Catholic Mass with Pentecostal overtones. “We said all the prayers with all the rubrics of the Church, all the readings, the Eucharistic prayers. We did it all, and we did it with an African-American style.”

Not everyone liked the change, however, and the 200-member congregation began to dwindle.

Meanwhile, Jones contacted Detroit’s Sacred Heart Seminary and was referred to Steve Ray of Milan, Mich., whose conversion story is told in Crossing the Tiber.

“I set up a lunch with him right away and we pretty much had lunch every month after that,” said Ray. He introduced Jones to Dennis Walters, the catechist at Christ the King Parish in Ann Arbor, Mich. Walters began giving the Pentecostal pastor and his wife weekly instructions in March, 1999.

Crossroads

Eventually, Jones and his congregation arrived at a crossroads.

On June 4, the remaining adult members of Maranatha Church voted 39-19 to begin the process of becoming Catholic. In September, they began studies at St. Suzanne’s.

Maranatha closed for good in December. The congregation voted to give Jones severance pay and sell the building, a former Greek Orthodox church, to the First Tabernacle Church of God in Christ.

Father Dennis Duggan, St. Suzanne’s 53-year-old pastor, said the former Maranatha members and their pastor along with about 10 other candidates comprise the 750-member parish’s largest-ever convert class.

Unity and Diversity

Although not all parishioners at predominantly white St. Suzanne’s have received the group warmly, Father Duggan, who also is white, said he considers the newcomers a gift and an answer to prayer.

“What the Lord seems to have brought together in the two of us — Alex and myself — is two individuals who have a similar dream about diversity. Detroit is a particularly segregated kind of community, especially on Sunday morning, and here you’ve got two baptized believers who really believe we ought to be looking different.”

Father Duggan hopes eventually to bring Jones onto the parish staff. Already, he has encouraged Jones to join him in teaching at a Wednesday night Bible service. And, he is working on adapting the music at Masses so that it better reflects the parish’s new makeup.

The current European worship style at St. Suzanne’s has been the most difficult adjustment for the former Maranatha members, Jones said, because they had been accustomed to using contemporary music with the Catholic prayers and rituals.

“The cultural adaptation is far more difficult than the theological adaptation,” he said.

Protestant Issues

Jones said the four biggest problems Protestants have with Catholicism are teachings about Mary, purgatory, papal authority, and praying to saints. He resolved three of the four long ago, but struggled the most with Mary, finally accepting the teaching on her just because the church taught it.

“It is so ingrained in Protestants that only God inhabits heaven and to pray to anyone else is idolatry. ... The culture had so placed in my heart that only the Trinity received prayer that it was difficult.”

He is writing a paper on the appropriateness of venerating Mary for a class at Detroit’s Sacred Heart Seminary, where he is taking prerequisite courses for a master’s degree in theology and pastoral studies. He also is writing a book for Ignatius Press and accepting speaking engagements through St. Joseph Communications, West Covina, Calif.

Jones, the father of three married sons and grandfather of six, is leaving the question of whether he becomes a priest up to the Church.

“If the Church discerns that vocation, I will accept it. If not, I will accept that, too. Whatever the Church calls me to do, I will do.”

Although he has given up his job, prestige, and the congregation he built to become Catholic, Jones said the hardest loss of all has been the family and friends who rejected him because of his decision.

“To see those that have worshiped with and prayed with me for over 40 years walk away and have no contact with them is sad.”

It was especially painful, he said, when his mother, who had helped him start Maranatha, left to go to Detroit’s Perfecting Church, where his cousin, gospel singer Marvin Winans, is the pastor.

Neither Winans nor the pastor of the church that bought Maranatha’s building would comment on Jones’ conversion.

Jones also is troubled that those he left behind do not understand his decision.

“To them, I have apostasized into error. And that’s painful for me because we all want to be looked at as being right and correct, but now you have the stigma of being mentally unbalanced, changeable, being looked at as though you’ve just walked away from God.”

Jones said when his group was considering converting, prayer groups were formed to stop them. “People fasted and prayed that God would stop us from making this terrible mistake. When we did it, it was as though we had died.”

He said Catholics do not fully understand how many Protestants see their church. “There’s this thin veneer of amicability, and below that there is great hostility.”

But he remains convinced he is doing the right thing.

“How can you say no to truth? I knew that I would lose everything and that in those circles I would never be accepted again, but I had no choice,” he said.

“It would be mortal sin for me to know what I know and not act on it. If I returned to my former life, I would be dishonest, untrustworthy, a man who saw truth, knew truth, and turned away from it, and I could just not do that.”

[NYer]

Again, I am asking this sincerely because I have yet to be given a reasonable explanation for this, especially in light of the definition set forth in Chalcedon.

I would refer you to Karl Keating's web site. Alex Jones was moved by a comment made by Keating. His web site, Catholic Answers, can provide you with scripturally based responses to just about any question you might have. Specifically, here is the link to:

Christ In The Eucharist

You may also find answers at Marcus Grodi's web site.

"Have questions about the Catholic Church?
The CHNetwork is operated by many staff members who are themselves converts, and would be happy to discuss any theological questions you might have. We want to help you learn more about the Catholic Church, and help you discover the wonderful treasures that it contains. "

COMING HOME NETWORK

God bless you on your journey.

[Salvation]

**He was awesome, and it was he who said that in the last 3 years, that over 300 Protestant pastors had converted to Catholicism!**

What wonderful news!

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Disclaimer: I am not the best person to answer this question. I'll give it a shot anyway.

Look at this picture:

This is what happens at a Traditional Mass. Gerry Matatics calls the Eucharist "a time machine back to Calvary". Catholics believe during the Sacrifice of the Mass we are transported back in time to the foot of Cross. The one time Sacrifice is made present in the here and now and transfused/transformed in the species of the bread and wine which become the Body and Blood. The Mass opens up a portal to Heaven.

Gerry Matatics is a former Presbyterian minister. He has a couple of tapes on the Eucharist (one of which I've been listening to). He is going to be speaking in your area at the end of March if you're interested. He is a great speaker who can explain things better to Protestants than I can due to his background. Here's the link to his site: http://www.gerrymatatics.org/

[Frumanchu]

As to how he does this wouldn't you agree that God is capable of anything at all, the least of such being in two places at the same time?

In terms of His divine nature, yes. In terms of His human nature, no. Omnipresence is a divine attribute, not a human attribute. A human being cannot be present in two places at the same time. Christ's human nature is not infinite. It would seem to me that it would be impossible for His flesh to be physically present in the Eucharist worldwide while at the same time remaining seated at the right hand on the throne.

That is why I'm having trouble understanding this doctrine.

[Frumanchu]

See my #25.

[AAABEST]

I've seen that picture before and love it.

[Frumanchu]

I would refer you to Karl Keating's web site. Alex Jones was moved by a comment made by Keating. His web site, Catholic Answers, can provide you with scripturally based responses to just about any question you might have. Specifically, here is the link to: Christ In The Eucharist

I looked through the site and I couldn't find any explanation beyond "this is what the early church believed." There was no specific address as to how the physical body of Christ can be more places than physically possible for the substance present in a person of normal constitution.

I will check out Grodi's site as time permits.

[Frumanchu]

Gerry Matatics is a former Presbyterian minister. He has a couple of tapes on the Eucharist (one of which I've been listening to). He is going to be speaking in your area at the end of March if you're interested. He is a great speaker who can explain things better to Protestants than I can due to his background. Here's the link to his site: http://www.gerrymatatics.org/

Will check it out as time permits.

[conservonator]

In terms of His divine nature, yes. In terms of His human nature, no. Omnipresence is a divine attribute, not a human attribute. A human being cannot be present in two places at the same time. Christ's human nature is not infinite. It would seem to me that it would be impossible for His flesh to be physically present in the Eucharist worldwide while at the same time remaining seated at the right hand on the throne.

...ALL things are possible. The how can be a challenge or even impossible to understand. As someone already said; its a mystery of faith. What you can know is this: Christ instituted the Eucharist, see John 6, and being God he knew full well what he was promising and again being God, he is good to his Word.

[Tantumergo]

"There was no specific address as to how the physical body of Christ can be more places than physically possible for the substance present in a person of normal constitution."

You ask a sensible question as it is important to remember that Christ is both FULLY MAN as well as FULLY GOD.

When we say that Christ's Body and Blood are really present in the consecrated species, we believe that it is His living, resurrected and glorified Body and Blood - i.e. His human nature has been divinised by the action of the Holy Spirit, perhaps what the Orthodox would term theosis.

He now has a "spiritual body" as opposed to a "natural body". Consequently it does not suffer the same limitations that it did prior to His death and resurrection e.g. He is able to materialise/pass through locked doors cf. doubting Thomas etc.

Similarly in the Eucharist, He is not bound by the same constraints of time and space that we are, as His Body and Blood have taken on the spiritual qualities which are needed to exist in eternity where every single moment in time is simultaneously present as present.

To try and rationalise the Mystery much further is probably to tread on thin ice - there is only so much that is knowable with a limited human intellect unless God gives a specific revelation.

However, St. Paul makes some notable contrasts between the natural body and the supernatural body in the following passage:

1 Cor 15,35 "But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?
36 Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first.
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest.
38 But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes.
40 And there are BODIES CELESTIAL, and BODIES TERRESTRIAL: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial.
41 One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is SOWN IN WEAKNESS, IT SHALL RISE IN POWER.
44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:
45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
46 Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly.
48 Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly.
49 Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. WE SHALL ALL INDEED RISE AGAIN: BUT WE SHALL NOT ALL BE CHANGED.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

St. John also appears to teach that there is something radically different about resurrected human nature, which is just not knowable or understandable in this earthly existence:

1 John 2 "Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is."

[redhead]

"In terms of His divine nature, yes. In terms of His human nature, no. Omnipresence is a divine attribute, not a human attribute. A human being cannot be present in two places at the same time. Christ's human nature is not infinite. It would seem to me that it would be impossible for His flesh to be physically present in the Eucharist worldwide while at the same time remaining seated at the right hand on the throne. That is why I'm having trouble understanding this doctrine."

Christ's human nature/body was glorified at His resurrection. Since He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, He is God. He is not only ABLE to be in two places at once, He is able to be EVERYWHERE He wants.

God created time. Because He is "outside of time," He is not constrained by temporal restrictions, and not only can He be present within the Eucharist on every altar in the world, but everything for Him is an eternal NOW.

[Frumanchu]

You ask a sensible question as it is important to remember that Christ is both FULLY MAN as well as FULLY GOD. When we say that Christ's Body and Blood are really present in the consecrated species, we believe that it is His living, resurrected and glorified Body and Blood - i.e. His human nature has been divinised by the action of the Holy Spirit, perhaps what the Orthodox would term theosis.

The notion that His human nature is somehow "divinized" appears to me to be in direct violation of the definition of Chalcedon:

"...recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ"

To "mix" the natures by means of "divinizing" the human nature blurs the discinction between and preservation of those natures. To me the standard finitum non capax infinitum applies.

[winstonchurchill]

Jones said the four biggest problems Protestants have with Catholicism are teachings about Mary, purgatory, papal authority, and praying to saints. He resolved three of the four long ago,...

And this learned fellow did this exactly how? By frontal lobotomy? Burning his Bible?

[.45MAN]

I have listened to Scott's story many times. Have read a few of his books. and am still listening to the audio from the programs on EWTN, sometimes a couple a day. I have learned more about the bible from him than I ever could in a lifetime..

[Phx_RC]

Thank you very much.

Have we noticed that every time we see something like this
that it stirs our love for our Catholic Faith and for its devotions and traditions.

Each of these is an instance of the beauty of holiness
- however brief or seemingly private that it was intended to be, an image is impressed on our hearts to be long remembered.

What a blessing it would be if there were a place that could be visited whenever someone wanted to dwell for a while on experiences such as these.
As a place in FreeRepublic it might be called the: "Catholic Traditions in Daily Life Canteen".

A bit of an example elsewhere might be: the Reader's Digest feature- "Life in these United States". These brief stories always left me with a smile and a warm feeling of thank you to whomever took the time to prepare and submit the item.

Each remembered experience could convey the specialness of the moment as much as possible including the thoughts and actions and perhaps what it meant to the observer or participant and to any other people nearby.

These little sharings of Catholic Tradition in daily life might include:
-An interaction between Denise and her friends about chapel veils.
-A special response or interaction upon giving a holycard to someone.
-A story about four little children all dressed up on Easter Sunday going around distributing brightly colored packets of candy - and what fortunately was on hand to give them in return.
-Thoughts about the approaching moment of the reception of Jesus onto your tongue.
-About the inspiration received when a priest came into the perpetual adoration room late at night.
-About a successful effort to restore to a parish the singing of hymns like: O Sacrament Most Holy...

May you edify others and pray that they might edify you.
Let all be lifted up just a little bit higher.

[Tantumergo]

"To "mix" the natures by means of "divinizing" the human nature blurs the discinction between and preservation of those natures. "

We believe that theosis is the ultimate end of all human nature that is raised to new life in Christ and perseveres to the finish line - not just Christ's human nature.

We are truly made a new creation in Him - we will always be fully human, but we partake in the divine nature:

2 Peter 1,4 "By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world."

Do you not see evidence in the Gospels that His post-resurrection spiritual Body was significantly different from His pre-resurrection natural Body?

Chalcedon is primarily addressing the reality of the hypostatic union at the incarnation, it does not address the issue of the change that occurs in His human nature post resurrection.

[1stFreedom]

>>What I don't understand is how Christ's flesh can be in two places at once, both sitting on the throne and in the substance of the Eucharist in any number of churches at any particular time.

Heck, Christ rose from the dead, a death that no one could come back from. He raised the dead, he cured the blind with spittle and dirt, and this thing you mention confuses you?

Just think about how God exists in the first place if you want a real brain twister.

Think about the soul -- according to all known laws of science, it's impossible for a soul to exist. A soul can't be detected, yet it occupies the same place as your body. If there is a God, then why isn't he visible? Why can't he send us radio waves and visa versa? GOD TV would be a smash hit on cable.

My point is,we cannot apply Science (the laws of science which the creator created) to the Creator. Rather, he applies them to us and excludes himself.

Acceptable? Yes. Understandable. Nope!

[Campion]

What I don't understand is how Christ's flesh can be in two places at once, both sitting on the throne and in the substance of the Eucharist in any number of churches at any particular time.

The argument you're bringing up -- that transubstantiation contradicts Chalcedon -- was lodged by John Calvin. His argument is that transubstantiation makes Christ's humanity omnipresent, thus contradicting Chalcedon, because omnipresence is an attribute of divinity, not humanity.

Of course, there's the simple answer that the Council Fathers of Chalcedon unquestionably accepted the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (a long list of proofs can be adduced for that), so they must have been contradicting their own belief, as well!

However, Calvin's premise is wrong, so his argument collapses. Transubstantiation does not make Christ's humanity omnipresent (present everywhere) but merely multipresent or multilocal (present in several places at once). That's not the same thing.

And, there is no reason to suppose that glorified humanity cannot be multilocal. (After all, according to the Gospels, it can pass through walls and doors, so why can it not be in two places at once?) In fact, there are thought to be cases on record where non-glorified humanity is bilocal, through a miracle. The Italian stigmatist friar St. Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio) is believed to have had the spiritual gift of bilocation, for example.

[Campion]

physical body of Christ can be more places than physically possible for the substance present in a person of normal constitution

Christ's humanity is not now that of "a person of normal constitution". It's resurrected, glorified human nature.