Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[LS]

I recently watched "The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc," starring Milla Jovovich. Not being a Catholic, I had some questions:

1) At the end, the notes said Joan was "canonized" 500 years later(approx. 1930s, I guess). Does canonization automatically mean one is "sainted?" Or are they different? If so, what is the difference?

2) What are the prerequisites to be either "canonized" or "sainted," if they are different?

3) Specifically to the movie---if anyone saw it---was the Dustin Hoffman character supposed to be Lucifer, the accuser?

4) I'm weak historically on this: was the film accurate about Joan often doing things on her own ("if you love me, fight for me") as opposed to leading the armies "in the name of God?" I suppose it depends on what you think of Joan, but among believers, is the consensus that she indeed received instructions from God, or that she was a fruitloop?

[familyop]

Joseph Le Maistre was a hero--and my forefather. He surely did not look like a...well, like Dustin Hoffman.

We need more Elijahs right now.

Isis worship...no...Jezebel worship is a very old problem that needs to be stomped on every few hundred years. We should have done it most recently in the 1800s. ...would have prevented a lot of problems.

[Salvation]

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[madison10]

Have you been reading Chick Publications?

[CourtneyLeigh]

"Even non-humans (such as St. Michael the Archangel) had been declared saints."

Inquiry,
What is the Lord, Our Father in Heavens, Definition of a Saint?

And what is the Biblical description of angels, and archangels, and seraphim?

Where in the Bible does is state that miracles can be performed through a dead man?

I am just a little curious as to what is there to be read, and said on these topics.

Thank you,
Courtney

[familyop]

"Could you please move this to the Religion Forum?"

Could you please move objections against Christian belief to a Democrat site?

[CourtneyLeigh]

"Catholics believe that the saints are our "older brothers" in Heaven. That is, we don't pray to them the way we pray to God, but simply ask them to pray to God for us and to intercede on our behalf. "

This is a true statement on Catholicism. However, my personal observation of Southern American Catholics, they have been known to bring offerings of candles, incense, and flowers with their prayers to the feet of the statued saints.

Did you know that nowhere in the Bible is any dead man given credence to be an interceding or mediator on our behalf to God.

Yes, there are thousands of statements where parents, disciples, and spouses pray FOR their loved ones. However, God expects us to be accountable for ourselves.

Christ was the only mediator given unto us by the Creator. Thru Him and only Him are our prayers, praise, and repentance heard. He was alone on the cross, the sacrifice was for our sin, by Him and Him alone.

If God really wanted us to ask someone else to help us with our prayers, he would have sent more men to die for our sins.

There are many Scriptures in the King James bible and further translations that state these things.
I've never read the Roman Catholic Bible, so I've no education on what you are taught by the doctrines of the Vatican, so I don't mean to argue, when I only have my knowledge and opinions to go by.

These are just some thoughts.

Here are a few verses to look at if you feel it's of any interest to you:
John 14:6;
Matthew 6:6;
Ephesians 2:13-18;
I Samuel 2:11-26;

and there are thousands of them..! Sometimes there's just so much truth and information in the Bible, most people give up on knowing the whole of it. Just a thought.

Well, hope this all makes since.

Take it easy.
Courtney

[polemikos]

What is the Lord, Our Father in Heavens, Definition of a Saint?

It would seem that your question presupposes that the Bible should act as a dictionary. Clearly it doesn't.

However, looking at sacred Scripture, the meaning of the terms for "saint" in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin is "holy one." Thus the most basic meaning of "saint" is someone who is in some way holy, sanctified, or consecrated.

[Fredy]

One "to be" saint :

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta66.htm

And some information about him from other source :

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/

[CourtneyLeigh]

I am aware that the Bible is not a dictionary, however, it is the most perfect set of blue prints, guidelines, a bible for our lifestyle to go by.

Yes, Saint is defined as holy one.
But do you know what the Bible describes as being Holy?

You're close, the greek, and hebrew definitions are still a little vague.

"Therefore be ye holy,even as your Father in Heaven is holy." Matthew 5:48 KJV
same scripture:
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. " The New American Standard Bible.

So, the real definition of holiness is perfection.

And Christ said ...'There's is none who are righteous, no not one...' NT
Thanks for the Greek/Hebrew translation, either way.

It was good to see that someone actually refers to those still.
Have you ever looked up the NT in Armaic.?

[familyop]

"Have you been reading Chick Publications?"

Yeah, I got your chick publication right here. LOL!

Real Conservative Issues Site- Not for the goddess worshipping Elite!

[reed_inthe_wind]

Excuse me for changing the subject a bit, but I noticed that you mention the Catholic bible as something different from your bible. Regarding the old testament books that were (eventually)removed as a consequence of the reformation, what reasons are given for their removal?

[P.O.E.]

I recommend Dreyer's silent version from the 20's. Cast includes Antonin Artaud, of all people. But very evocative performance by Maria Falconetti as Joan.

[CourtneyLeigh]

Okay, good question.

I really don't know what exactly makes them different.
However, I have only a few instances in my experience with past acquaintances of Catholicism. And when we would share Bible study together, she had things, "books" added to her bible that a simple KJV (with concordance) didn't have.
I am negligent to remember exactly what they were, just like she'd never seen the Ten Commandments done differently than in her Bible. Mine were different from hers.

[Coleus]

Here is St. Joan's story
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm

Here is a link to canonization
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

The Lives of the Saints
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_20030315_martins-saints_en.html

Canonization Process
http://www.nationalchristchildsoc.org/Canonization/CanonizationProcess.html


Can. 1403 §1 Cases for the canonization of the Servants of God are governed by special pontifical law.

[DallasMike]

..."books" added to her bible that a simple KJV (with concordance) didn't have.

The original King James Version contained the Apocryphal books. If the KJV-only folks knew this, they would be horrified.

[reed_inthe_wind]

I really don't know what exactly makes them different. However, I have only a few instances in my experience with past acquaintances of Catholicism. And when we would share Bible study together, she had things, "books" added to her bible that a simple KJV (with concordance) didn't have. I am negligent to remember exactly what they were, just like she'd never seen the Ten Commandments done differently than in her Bible. Mine were different from hers.

Any other Freepers out there who can answer the question?

[Coleus]

Ron Maxwell made the film years ago and had to shelf it. When France found out that he was making such a film, they immediately started to make their own and had it in the theatres before he finished his--he's very thorough. Then soon after that, NBC aired a mini series.

Ron will be releasing it in the distant future.

[CourtneyLeigh]

the original King James was translated from three languages, Hebrew, Greek and Armaic(sp).

The original was ordered by the King James to be transcribed by 11-12 different Scribers across what is now europe and russia.

If this is the case,
show me, tell me then, just which group of people held in their possession the Apocryphal books?

I'm not horrified, still stumptified.

Thanks

[CourtneyLeigh]

correction,
from which dialect were the Apocryphal books transcribed from?

Sorry, wasn't typing faster than I was thinking.

[Tantumergo]

"Did you know that nowhere in the Bible is any dead man given credence to be an interceding or mediator on our behalf to God."

I would suggest that you look more closely at the Apocalypse. In several places it speaks of the prayers of the angels and saints in heaven, and their awareness and concern for those still on earth:

Apoc 11,16 "And the four and twenty ancients, who sit on their seats in the sight of God, fell on their faces and adored God, saying:
17 We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, who art, and who wast, and who art to come: because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and thou hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth."

Apoc 6,9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: "How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their FELLOW SERVANTS, and their BRETHREN, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up."