Ideology and Patterns in Translation Error

Translation1 involves the production of a text in one language that was inspired by an existing text in another language, such that the two texts are in some sense 'the same.' Exactly how this is accomplished is open to question. In Sullivan 1984, I show the relationship between proper translation and paraphrase. It involves decoding the message from an existing text and re-encoding the message in a new text. This results in two texts different in form with the same message. Translation parallels this except that the source and target texts are in different languages.

Paraphrases vary in quality as a function of their accuracy, i.e. the degree to which the message they convey, when decoded, matches the message of the original text. This is true whether they are translations or not. Since translations are often performed in formal and public circumstances, the question of accuracy is raised with a greater percentage of translations than with monolingual paraphrases. But accuracy is important in all cases, and a complaint regarding accuracy should be taken seriously. Literary translations adhere to a higher standard of quality, a standard that considers the form of the text as well as the message transmitted. The target text in a good translation is adjusted in form so that it corresponds to the source text. That is, the translation of a sonnet should be a sonnet, and the translation of a joke should be funny. Thus a translation may be criticized on both form and semantic content. In the present study, however, I focus on the latter.

Errors in translation are defined here as encodings that distort the message evoked by the source text. I distinguish between major and minor errors: Minor errors permit misunderstanding via imprecise encodings. Consider, for example, the Latin greeting common to early Christians: pax vobiscum 'peace (be) with you.' The customary reply, et cum spiritu tuo, 'and with your spirit' is now rendered, 'and also with you.' When I objected that this is inaccurate, I was told that it is 'what et cum spiritu tuo actually means.' That is, it is a personal reply, returning the good wishes to the greeter. Of course it is, but it was more in the original. The Latin text makes it clear that this exchange is a personal and spiritual one between co-religionists. It has to do with inner peace. It is not concerned with world peace or peace and quiet but with the peace of the soul. And also with you does not block the interpretation I suggest, but it also permits the alternatives mentioned. So the approved 'translation' unnecessarily introduces ambiguities, which in turn permit misunderstanding. Conversely, major errors introduce and require misunderstanding. In the course of this study I concentrate on the major errors in the English translation of the Novus Ordo Missae of the Roman Catholic Church. Exactly how major errors require misunderstanding becomes clear as we proceed.

I am interested in two sides of translation error: the locus of the error and the effect of the error on the message. Consider first the locus of the error. I assume that the distribution of errors may be significant. That is, if the translator is incompetent in the grammar of the language, this will show up in syntactic and morphological errors. [Editor's Note: Syntax is word order that forms meaning. The difference between the two clauses "Are you here" and "Here you are" is syntactical. Morphological differences have to do with changes in words such as the change of "flower" to "flowery" by the addition of the letter "-y."] Incompetence in discourse structure will show up in errors in pronoun or other deictic reference, verb sequencing or tense, arrangement of subordinacy, etc. Insufficient familiarity with the subject matter results in inapt or arbitrary vocabulary choices from dictionary entries.2 General incompetence should show up as mistakes randomly scattered throughout linguistic structure. Morphology, syntax, discourse structure, and the lexicon all participate. In short, the distribution of error loci will give some indication about the translators' competence. The distribution of the effect of errors, on the other hand, may tell about the translators' intent. That is, the occurrence of ideologically random effects would be a sign of honest mistakes. However, if the effect of errors is frequent and patterned, it suggests an unconscious bias or even a conscious ideological predisposition on the part of the translators.

In 1971 the new Roman Catholic Mass commonly called the Paul VI Mass was introduced.3 Controversial from the beginning in some quarters, not all of them conservative, the Paul VI Mass was made obligatory and the older Pius V Mass was banned. In the United States the bans went further: Only the English translation of the Paul VI Mass was permitted in most dioceses; the Latin original was banned.4 One of the reasons for controversies surrounding the English translation of the Missa Pauli Sexti concerns the quality of the translation. An Irish priest told me that the bishops of Ireland and the United Kingdom were unhappy with the English text produced by the American Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy and had refused to accept it for several years.5 There was a rumor that the English text had numerous errors. Both texts of the new Mass are translations from the authorized Latin text and should presumably be equivalent or nearly so.

However, in 1979 I attended Mass for the first time in Poland and was struck by major discrepancies between the Polish and English texts. The discrepancies I noted were so great that I considered the English and Polish texts substantively different. At least one of them, in my opinion, had to contain serious translation error. But this was merely my inference. The proper approach to verifying (or invalidating) this inference is to obtain a copy of the authoritative Latin text and compare the three. This was not easy to do as no publication of the Novus Ordo Missae had been authorized for the laity in the United States. Recently (fall, 1991) I found a priest (it is politic to leave him unnamed) who was willing to let me copy his Latin text. Using this text, I was able to compare the two translations, concentrating on major errors only. The findings are both shocking and disappointing: The Polish text has no major errors that I could find; I estimate that the English text has at least 300. I turn now to a description, classification, and analysis of these errors.

Taking the Latin text of the Missa Pauli Sexti as the source text, I compared the approved Polish and English translations to the original. Only about 30% of the total text was available to me in Polish, so the detailed comparison was limited to that portion of the text. The text comprises most of a single complete Ordinary (the fixed prayers), including one of the four Canons and the default Preface for Sunday. No Propers (Bible readings proper to a given day) were included, and some prayers recited privately by the priest were also omitted from the Polish text. Minor errors were ignored. Major errors were classified according to linguistic type and semantic effect. No major errors were discovered in the Polish translation. For the sake of brevity, therefore, I henceforth ignore the Polish text and concentrate on the major errors in the English translation.

There are three major types of error in the English translation. First, something in the source text may be omitted. Second, something not in the source text may be added to the target text. Third, there may be a mistranslation of one sort or another, a point to which I return below. Finally, there may be errors which combine any two or even all three. There are several types of mistranslation. They may be purely lexical, e.g. translating magoi as 'astrologers' (Sullivan 1984:371-73). But there are many possible grammatical errors. Among the morphological errors are the confusion between singular and plural in both nouns and verbs, and the confusion of count nouns with collectives. The syntactic errors include a rearrangement of word or phrase order, confusion between subject and object, the substitution of a finite predicate for a participial phrase, and the confusion between active and passive voice. There are discourse structure errors involved in the rearrangement of sentences or even smaller blocks of text. I now give some examples of each type.

The simplest type of error is the omission of something in the original text. This may be as little as a single word or as much as an entire phrase. The phrase totiusque ecclesiae suae sanctae, 'and all his holy Church,' was translated without the word 'holy.' This is a major error in that it removes the adjective that identifies the ecclesia in this prayer with the unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam in the Nicene Creed and that distinguishes it from any other church. That is, it blurs a siginificant distinction, whether between Catholic and Protestant or between Christian and non-Christian, I cannot say. I do not know the intent of the translators for sure. But a significant distinction is nonetheless blurred, and this is a major error.

There are also instances of omission of an entire phrase. The phrase mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, 'through my fault, through my fault, through my very great fault,' was dropped from its position in the confession of sins (Confiteor). A single 'through my fault' was inserted after 'I have sinned.'6 Also, the phrase 'through my very great fault' is dropped completely. This blurs the distinction between venial sins and mortal sins. Absent this distinction, the confession of sins becomes a fairly general condemnation of sin. The individual's assumption of responsibility for his or her own sins is significantly diluted.

The text studied contains many omissions; so many in fact, that it is difficult to assess exactly how many there are. Some omissions are single words, some as long as a clause. Considering semantic effect reveals another side of the picture. Some omissions are clearly major errors; some appear to be minor; the status of some are debatable. But they all have one thing in common: each one could have been avoided.

Additions to the text are somewhat less common than omissions but are equally avoidable. They are exactly what they sound like. Something is put in the target text that is not in the source text. For example, the item, Tibi gratias agens, 'again giving You thanks' is translated, 'again he gave you thanks 0and praise0.' Ignore, for present purposes, the syntactic or discourse block error involved in changing a participial phrase into a finite clause. Although that is a distinct error, my primary focus rests instead on the addition 'and praise,' which is not in the Latin original. I do not pretend to theological expertise, so my comments here should not be taken as definitive. Yet I see this as a major error. This section of the Consecration summarizes the Gospel texts on the Last Supper. The unnamed agent of agens is Jesus and Tibi refers to God the Father. In the Catholic tradition, humans praise God in general and each Person of the Trinity separately. At the Last Supper, as Jesus performed the original Consecration of Bread and Wine, He was acting as God. Putting the praise of God into His mouth at this point makes Him less God-like and more man-like. Again, as with the omission of 'holy,' discussed in section 2.3, this change blurs a significant distinction, in this case, the distinction between Divine and human. Worse, the distinction is blurred with regard to Jesus Christ, 'true God and true man,' Who is the Incarnation of this distinction. Clearly, I feel that this is a major error.

Now my analysis of this error could be disputed. What cannot be disputed is the nature of additions to the text. It could be argued that omissions might result from inadvertant carelessness; no such argument, however, is possible as regards additions. They must be deliberate. Although their motivation could be debated, a point to which I return below, they can hardly be called accidental. To the extent that they can be shown to be major errors, then, additions and their semantic effects are important. Another important, if sometimes subtler, form of error is found in linguistically-based mistranslations, to which I now turn.

Mistranslations may be lexical, morphological, syntactic, or sememic (discourse structure) in nature. There are plenty of lexical errors in the translation of the Paul VI Mass. Return to the Orate fratres, 'Pray, brethren,' and remember that this is being said by the priest to the congregation. The first phrase following the opening invocation is ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium, 'that my sacrifice and yours.' This is translated, 'that our sacrifice.' It is argued that mine + yours = ours. They may be equivalent, but only if my sacrifice and your sacrifice are the same sacrifice, i.e. that there is only one sacrifice involved. The original prayer has the priest and congregation making different sacrifices. The translation conflates them, blurring the distinction between priest and laity.

Now consider structural errors. There are several morphological errors involving the singular-plural distinction. They are found with both nouns and verbs. For example, consider a formula that occurs several times during the Mass: Agnus Dei ... qui tollis peccata mundi becomes 'Lamb of God...who takes away the sins of the world,' is rendered, 'you take away the sin of the world.' Again, ignoring the shift from subordinate to independent clause, the important error here involves the replacement of 'sins' by 'sin.' The Latin peccata is clearly a neuter accusative plural: 'sins' is therefore correct. By using the singular 'sin,' the approved translation gives the text a collective reading, as if it should be understood, ' take away the sinfulness of the world.' What makes this important is that it downgrades individual responsibility for individual acts. This parallels the effect of removing mea culpa from the Confiteor (see section 2.3). Moreover, the first occurrence of erroneous sin is in the Gloria, which immediately follows the Confiteor. The juxtaposition is striking.

The opposite mistranslation (rendering singular as plural) occurs throughout the Credo or Creed. Credo in Unum Deum, 'I believe in One God,' is translated as 'We believe in One God.' Two other first-person singular verbs in the Credo (confiteor, 'I confess' and expecto, 'I await') are translated with 'we' wherever they occur. This is a particularly insidious error. Since the Creed is recited in unison by the entire congregation, the use of 'we' is not generally striking. But remember that the Creed is a profession of faith, of beliefs. Religious beliefs are held by individuals. They are not the product of the democratic process as in, 'We elected Bill president.' Again, individual responsibility is shifted to a community sense.

In the interest of brevity I give no examples of error in text structure. Those interested may look at the radical and extensive reordering of clauses in the Gloria and draw their own conclusions. A beautiful example of combined errors is found in the translation of qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur, 'which for you and for many will be shed.' This phrase is part of the consecration prayer. It is translated, 'It will be shed for you and for all men.' Note the shift from subordinate to main clause (syntactic), the translation of multis as 'all' instead of 'many' (lexical), and the addition of men to the text.7 There is no need to analyze the error in adding men, but the shift of multis to 'all' deserves discussion. This error has been justified by appeal to a putative tradition of the early Church that salvation is given to everyone. Ignoring the fact that 'salvation is offered for everyone'--the actual tradition, in my reading of the Acts--differs from 'salvation is given to everyone' (another blurred distinction) one can more importantly note that there are at least three Latin expressions which would have sufficed in this ancient prayer and which would have made more sense to translate using 'all': pro omnibus, 'for all,' pro multitudine, 'for the multitude,' and pro his multis, 'for the many.' But none of those occur. Pro multis is a much weaker expression than any of the other three. In their absence, translating pro multis as 'for all' is hardly justifiable. A dominant early Christian tradition of universal salvation would surely have introduced one of the stronger expressions. The general thrust of these errors should be clear.

All the error types discussed are found in the English translation of the Missa Pauli Sexti. There are 39 omissions, 8 additions, 19 lexical mistranslations, 10 morphological mistranslations, 23 syntactic mistranslations, and 5 discourse block mistranslations that I would call major. This is a total of 103 major errors. When faced with a 'combination' error I counted it as an error in each of the relevant categories. This may have inflated the count somewhat, but there is an offset. I don't know how to classify the introduction to the Lord's Prayer. There are four versions, none of which bears much resemblance to the Latin original. As a result, I have not counted these errors. I feel that 103 major errors in 30% of the text is a realistic estimate. Assuming that the remaining 70% of the text has errors at the same rate, the entire English translation may have over 340 major errors.

Omissions constitute the largest category (39). No other simple category comes near this. However, the distinction between morphemic and syntactic mistranslations or between syntactic and discourse mistranslations is not always clear-cut. That is, a syntactic mistranslation almost always involves a morphemic mistranslation. In counting, I tended toward the conservative in my assignments of error types. That is, I tried to assign the error to the minimal category, such that a single morphological correction (with any necessary ancillary corrections) would eliminate the error. In this way I hoped to produce a conservative estimate of the numbers. However, I have no real check on my consistency in classification here. So distinguishing between different types of structural errors may be questionable. They should probably be grouped together. If we add the different types of structural errors, we get a total of 38, which compares nicely to the 39 omissions. Each of these is roughly twice the size of the 19 lexical mistranslations, a little more than twice the size of the 8 additions. This gives roughly a 1::2::4::4 ratio for the four categories. Ratios aside, it is clear that the types of mistranslations are spread over all existing categories.

The examples chosen all have clear effects. I group them into two general categories: the reduction of personal responsibility and the blurring of important distinctions. I consider them in turn. The omission of mea culpa (cf. section 2.3) eliminates an acceptance of personal responsibility for sins in a prayer that is supposed to be a personal confession of sins from the Confiteor (= I confess). The translation of peccata, 'sins,' as a singular (cf. section 2.5), which occurs in the Gloria, immediately after the Confiteor, and at five other places in the Mass, reduces individual sins to some kind of general sinfulness. Translation of credo, 'I believe,' as 'we believe,' substitutes community consensus for a personal profession of faith. All three reduce or eliminate individual responsibility by either distracting attention from the presumably responsible individual or by reducing the seriousness of the acts for which the individual is responsible.

The other errors show a different effect, the blurring of distinctions. Adding 'and praise' to the consecration (cf. section 2.4) reduces the God-like character of Jesus and blurs the distinction between Divine and Human. Translating pro multis, 'for many' as 'for all' blurs the distinction between the many, who accept Jesus as the Messiah and Savior, and all, a word that includes those who actively reject Him. Translating ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium, 'that my sacrifice and yours,' as 'our sacrifice,' blurs the distinction between priest and laity. Examples of these two types of effects occur everywhere in the English text. Each effect occurs with every error type, and almost any error has one or the other effect. In at least one case8 a phrase is translated so as to combine both types of effect.

The 103 errors are evenly divided between the two general effects: reducing individual responsibility and blurring distinctions. The distinctions blurred may be between Divine and human, between Catholic and non-Catholic (or Christian and non- Christian), or between priest and laity. It could be argued in some cases that what is blurred is the distinction between religion and its absence. Yet these are all important distinctions. I group them together because they are the questions whose answers constitute the stuff of religion, in this case Catholicism.

The error types are universally distributed throughout all possible types. This shows that the errors are not due to the translators' incompetence in some part of Latin structure or vocabulary (or, for that matter, in some part of English). It does not rule out general and universal incompetence for all the translators,9 but this is an unlikely scenario. Moreover, there are too many errors to be ascribed to mere carelessness without further evidence. In fact, there is evidence against concluding either general incompetence or massive carelessness. Incompetence or carelessness could produce the distribution of error types seen in the text. However, the error effects should also be random, and they are not. They fall into two categories. Such a clustering suggests that there is an ideological motivation behind the mistranslations. An examination of the error effects will demonstrate that they complement each other and will expose that ideology.

Reducing individual responsibility and blurring distinctions do not appear to be aimed in the same direction at least at first glance. Consider first the reduction of personal responsibility. It is aimed directly at the faithful, the ordinary church members. It tells them that they have less to worry about, in terms of fulfilling personal obligations, a message often justified in terms of non-judgementalism or the like. Certainly reduced responsibility is one way of reducing the guilt that often comes with (inevitable) failures. In traditional Christianity--outside the most rigid Calvinist lines--and in Catholicism in particular, however, there is a different mode of reducing guilt: The individual accepts responsibility for sins and depends on God's mercy receiving absolution in return in the sacrament of Penance (now renamed Reconciliation).

Reducing individual responsibility reduces or even eliminates the need for absolution. One of Luther's dogmatic disagreements with Rome was over the definition of sacraments, and Penance is one of the sacraments he defined out of existence. Hence the reduction of individual responsibility in the English translation of the Missa Pauli Sexti also blurs the distinction between Catholic and non-Catholic.

The two error effects are also complementary. As shown above, the reduction of individual responsibility is aimed at the Catholic faithful. The blurring of distinctions is aimed at the institutional Church by undermining its theology. So together, the error effects of English translation of the Paul VI Mass aim at both parts of the temporal Catholic Church. A concerted attack of this sort, it may be assumed, is not accidental. Instead, it is driven by an underlying ideology. I now turn to the character and identity of this ideology.

Both error effects are examples of moral relativism, which characterizes Modernism. Modernism was condemned as error over a century ago by Pope Pius X in his encyclical Pascendi.10 It infected much of liberal Christianity (i.e. mainstream Protestantism) during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and it is my impression that the Fundamentalist movement was to at least some extent a Protestant reaction to Modernism. Over the years some Catholic theologians also adopted Modernism in error. In the period before World War II, some of them were stripped of the title 'theologian,' and their writings were officially suppressed. But the Modernist influence was strong in some countries (e.g. France and the U. S. A and it blossomed in the post-Vatican II era, producing the translations we have today. The only problem with this analysis is that it puts the blame on Catholic priests and bishops--the very people entrusted with protecting the Faith. On its face, then, it seems unlikely. Yet there are two kinds of separate evidence to show that the analysis is accurate.

There are two independent sources of evidence for Catholic Modernism in the United States. The first of these is a list of contemporary liturgical practices which are complete breaks with Catholic tradition and which were not mandated by Vatican II, but which are almost universally enforced in the country today. This list includes replacing the altar with a Communion table, requiring that the priest face the congregation, substituting 'seasonal' texts or congregational hymns for the Bible texts proper to a given day, dropping the Confiteor and the Gloria altogether, banning the Mass of the Catechumens, etc. At least some priests also refuse to wear liturgical colors. What remains is almost identical to a Presbyterian Communion Service. Still, it could be maintained that these practices are merely coincidental. What is not coincidental is the preface to Bates (N.D., paragraph 1): 'The two previous editions, 1971 and 1975...attempted to move American Catholics more toward the mainstream of Christian hymnody. The present edition reflects our perception of that growth.' And this is a document approved by the American Bishops and their Committee on the Liturgy. Q. E. D.

The English translation of the Missa Pauli Sexti has hundreds of major errors. The errors are of all types: omissions and additions, lexical and structural mistranslations. The effects of the errors distort the text to reduce individual responsibility on the part of the faithful and to blur distinctions which are important in traditional Catholic doctrine. These effects are complementary attacks on traditional Catholicism (and even Christianity, in general). Both effects reflect the moral relativism which is a mark of Modernism. The mistranslations were introduced into the post-Vatican II American Catholic Church by influential members of the clergy and approved by bishops who were clearly infected with Modernism. The Modernist clergy's intent is to subvert traditional Catholicism and remake it in the image of liberal mainstream Protestantism.

Lest it seem I am too hard on liberal Protestantism here, I wish to state that I have no such intent. If anyone, including a Catholic priest or bishop, feels that some branch of liberal Protestantism is right and Catholicism is wrong wherever they disagree, that is fine by me. They should have the courage of their convictions and become practicing members of some mainstream Protestant religion. My sincere best wishes go with them. Failing that, they could bring their ideas out in the open and attempt to convince other Catholics, openly and honestly, that Modernism is correct and Pius X was wrong. However, I see no excuse for Modernist Catholics trying to subvert Catholicism into becoming their image of a church. They refuse to debate these questions openly, perhaps because they know that the opposition to their intentions would be massive, coming from both clergy and educated laity, and from orthodox liberal Catholics as well as traditionalists. Instead they attempt to achieve their goals by bringing in an erroneous translation of the Mass and relying on the old maxim: lex orandi, lex credendi, 'the law of praying is the law of believing,' or, in more colloquial phrasing, 'as we pray, so we believe.' Believe me, this is not what the Second Vatican Council ordered.

Batastini, Robert J. (ed.) (No Date) Worship: A Hymnal and Service Book for Roman Catholics. Chicago: GIA.

Sullivan, William J. 1984 'Stratificational Theory and the Fallacy of "Literal" Translations.' In the Tenth LACUS Forum 1983, A. Manning, P. Martin, and K. McCalla (eds.), pp. 267- Press

A modified version of this article appeared in the May 1995 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review. Reprinted with permission.

William J. Sullivan teaches Slavic and Linguistics in the Program in Linguistics at the University of Florida

Notes:

1. This article was originally prepared for an audience which included Catholics, other Christians, Jews, and Moslems, as well as a scattering of agnostics and at least one militant atheist at the annual Forum of the Linguistic Association of Canada and the United States. At times, therefore, I explain things which a traditional Catholic certainly knows, and for this I apologize. Its first appearance in print was in Homiletic and Pastoral Review (May, 1995).

Yes, indeed the very gates of hell has prevailed against the earthly edifice of Catholicism. The perverts and sodomites which infest the clergy, have indeed commanded people to depart from sound biblical doctrine, and the very validity of the matter and form of the sacraments. It is not so much John Paul II himself that is to blame personally, rather it is his failure to do anything about the literally millions complaints from faithful Catholics who have been forced to watch the farcical and Orwellian destruction of the Mass of their baptism, and have been subjected to the false teaching of their heterodox bishops. However, the gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church in the catacombs, that is why the Holy Spirit has raised up the Society of St. Pius X. Pope John Paul II is desperate to "get them back." Where the heck else is he going to get 500 or so excellent priests on such short notice. Afterall the Novus Ordo is not producing vocations any more, nor are the faithful even bothering to show up anymore. If it were not for SSPX there would be no FSSP, and no traditional Benedictines as well. SSPX is the work of the Holy Spirit. Pope John Paul II is too busy clapping for the break dancers in the Vatican to worry about the faithful who are being destroyed by an apostate clergy.

Yes, indeed the very gates of hell has prevailed against the earthly edifice of Catholicism.

Oh Poppycock! The Church is doing fine. Millions and millions are practicing their faith and living their faith, and passing their faith down to their children.

The perverts and sodomites which infest the clergy, have indeed commanded people to depart from sound biblical doctrine, and the very validity of the matter and form of the sacraments.

This isn't very widespread, though one could be led to believe otherwise if one segregates oneself from the normative church and limits his intake of information to publications which exist for the sole purpose of justifying the separatist mentality that organizations like the SSPX promulgate.

that is why the Holy Spirit has raised up the Society of St. Pius X. Pope John Paul II is desperate to "get them back."

LOL. Yeah, the pope is real desparate. It's been sixteen years since Ecclesia Dei was issued. That alone should have "got them back". If you refer to recent developments in a rapprochement, you confuse desperation with charity.

Once again...I refuse except under the circumstance of wedding, funeral, or baptism, to ever attend the Novus Ordo Mass again (I will respectfully not participate). You can keep the modernist Church...perhaps you'd like to sing some rap music with (Fr?) Stan Fortuna on EWTN? As for me and my house we will listen to Gregorian Chant in Latin...the true music of the Holy Spirit and Catholic faith. Only the SSPX for me...the rest of you can rest your salvation on the heterodox teachings of apostates like Weakland, Hunthhausen, Mahoney...etc.

As soon as I posted that I did remember the holy music of the Eastern rite...so I correct myself ...Gregorian Chant! the true music of the Holy Spirit...Eastern Chant too love it! Both the true music of the Holy Spirit!!! Guitars,St. Louis Jesuit singsongs books, altar girls, clown masses, feminist masses, politically correct lyrics? Don't much like that stuff, I will not voluntarily sit trough it ever again! I say goodbye to all of that nonsense...Tridentine Mass and no other for me! Long Live SSPX!

Guitars,St. Louis Jesuit singsongs books, altar girls, clown masses, feminist masses, politically correct lyrics?

Guess what? I've no use for that stuff either. Guess what else? I don't have to put up with it. And guess what sort of Mass I assist at? ... Hint: It's not Tridentine. And it's not Byzantine, either.

Only the SSPX for me...the rest of you can rest your salvation on the heterodox teachings of apostates like Weakland, Hunthhausen, Mahoney...etc.

Why would you assume that practicing Catholics in unity with the pope would pay attention to the handful of clerics with questionable agendas when we have Hardin, Burke, Rigali, Ratzinger, Chaput, Escriva, Mother Theresa, Dolan, Pell, and especially John Paul II to guide them, to name but a few off the top of my head? I think you see things through half empty lenses ( to happily mix metaphors ), but that is not surprising given your admitted allegiance to the excommunicated SSPX.

I am happy you are happy in your decision where you choose to attend mass (most folks are), but it is poor form to ridicule the choices of others, especially those who are living the creed by believing in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which Catholics are obliged to believe is unified in the person of the pope. The SSPX disparages the decisions of this pope at every turn, thus undermining the belief in the One Church as stated in the creed. For that reason it would be best to enjoy the chant but disregard the teachings of this rebellious little crowd, and better yet, not todisseminate these evil misrepresentations.

If you wanted to glorify the Tridentine Mass, I would be right behind you, 100%, but I will not set myself alongside an excommunicate bishop no matter how good an argument he makes, no matter how many problems he can point to in the Church.

Some time ago there was another excommunicate churchman who could make very good-sounding arguments about how the Church had 'gotten away' from the "true" religion (though I don't think even he claimed that the Holy Spirit spoke Latin) and who could point to a huge pile of corruptions within the Church, from the Pope on down as well. He also chose not to work through this within the Church but saw it as neccessary to break away. Yes, Martin Luther also said Hell had prevailed over the "earthly" Church, that the Pope was anti-Christ, that the clergy were corrupt etc, etc.

His rebellion did not solve anything in the Church, and only splintered Christendom at a time when unity was needed against the Muslims. If the Church today is in such bad shape, it is all the more reason to stick together and not allow disunity to splinter the Church even further.

No...I say splinter the Church as much as it takes! I am happy I have a place to go where I can embrace Christ and not the world. I am happy to hear glorius chant rather than guitar strumming. I am happy to see Priests solemnly offer the holy sacrifice and not have some sort of rave party. If it were not for (St.) Marcel Lefebvre, we would have nothing left.

For a return to sanity in the Church
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the light of the Latin language to expell the darkness of heresy.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For a liturgically orthodox Pope
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the triumph of Tradition.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the return of reverence in the liturgy.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the return of righteous seminary education.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the triumph of the Tridentine Mass.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the expulsion of sodomite elements in the clergy.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For right worship.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the true faith.
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!
For the expulsion of heterodoxy bishops
(St.) Marcel Lefebvre, pray for us!

I simply prophesy unto you unto you the word of God as it is given to us in the book of Acts: "...let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to naught: But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest you be found to fight against God." (Acts 5:38,39)

You should give Marcel titles in your litany. Like this:

Marcel, Disobeyer of Rome, ora pro nobis.

Marcel, Ordainer of Dissidents, ora pro nobis.

Marcel, Father of Schismatics, ora pro nobis.

Marcel, King of Pride, ora pro nobis.

Marcel, First Among Excommunicates, ora pro nobis.

Marcel, Vatican II Father and Supporter, ora pro nobis

Marcel, Joy of Luther, ora pro nobis

Marcel, Sower of Anger, ora pro nobis

My version is more traditional. :0)

Come on. Do you honestly think that the Catholic Church is going to canonize someone who has been excommunicated? Is there a St. Martin Luther? Not in the Catholic Church, nor will there be a St. Marcel. I suppose you can declare him a saint if you wish. That protestant mentality you possess is capable of usurping any number of decisions traditionally held by the Church of Rome. And you call youself a traditionalist.

Hatred? Nope. I would never mention the SSPX if others did not condemn the Church of Rome. Your litany was inciteful. Mine was a friendly "back atchya".

Is there a St. Martin Luther?

There was at the Novus Mass I suffered on January 18, 2004. The Catholic priest spent a 40 minute sermon describing how both Fr. Mychal Judge and Martin Luther King (unknowingly) were martyrs for the Catholic "faith" and both are now saints in Heaven.

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