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Five Myths About the Rapture
Crisis Magazine ^ | November 2003 | Carl E. Olson

Posted on 12/19/2003 1:47:09 AM PST by Heartbreak of Psoriasis

Three years ago I mentioned to a Catholic friend that I was starting to work on a book critiquing the Left Behind novels. I explained that it would thoroughly examine premillennial dispensationalism, the unique apocalyptic belief system presented, in fictional format, within those books. Premillennial dispensationalism teaches that the “Rapture” and the Second Coming are two events separated by a time of tribulation and that there will be a future millennial reign of Christ on earth. “Why?” she asked, obviously bewildered. “No one really takes that stuff seriously.”

That revealing remark merely reinforced my desire to write Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”? (Ignatius, 2003). Other conversations brought home the same point. Far too many people—including a significant number of Catholics—don’t recognize the attraction and power of this Fundamentalist phenomenon. Nor do they appear to appreciate how much curiosity exists about the “end times,” the book of Revelation, and the “pretribulation Rapture”—the belief that Christians will be taken up from earth prior to a time of tribulation and the Second Coming.

In the course of writing articles, giving talks, and writing the book, I’ve encountered a number of questions and comments—almost all from Catholics—that indicate how much confusion exists about matters of eschatology (theology of the end times), not to mention ecclesiology, historical theology, and the interpretation of Scripture. The five myths I present here summarize many of those questions.

MYTH 1 —

“The Left Behind books represent a fringe belief system that very few people take seriously.”

Exactly how many copies of the Left Behind books must be sold before the theology they propagate can be taken seriously? Fifty-seven million? That’s actually where sales stand as I write this, making the novels (consisting now of eleven books and supposedly ending with book 14) the biggest-selling series of Christian fiction ever. Then there are the two movies, CDs, children’s books, devotionals, greeting cards, and a host of other products, along with a Web site that attracts hundreds of thousands of fans every month.

But that’s only part of the larger picture. The biggest-selling work of non-fiction (other than the Bible) since 1970 is dispensationalist Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth (Bantam, 1970), which sold more than 40 million copies and established the blueprint for a number of other popular, self-described “Bible prophecy” experts (including Tim LaHaye, creator and coauthor of the Left Behind series). LaHaye’s first work of “Bible prophecy” was The Beginning of the End (Tyndale, 1972), essentially a carbon copy of Lindsey’s mega-seller. In the years that followed, Lindsey and LaHaye, along with authors such as Salem Kirban, David Wilkinson, Dave Hunt, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, and others, produced a string of best-selling books warning of the rapidly approaching pretribulation Rapture, the Antichrist, and the tribulation.

The success of these books and of the dispensationalist system isn’t “fringe.” Far from it—they’re actually quite main- stream, influencing even nominal Christians and non-Christians. It reflects a trend that has been steadily growing for several decades. While Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians dwindle in number and influence, Fundamentalist and conservative Evangelical groups continue to form and grow vigorously, making their mark increasingly in the secular realm. Many of these Fundamentalists—including “non-denominational” Christians, “Bible-believing” Christians, “born-again” Christians, Baptists, and Assembly of God members—are antagonistic toward the Catholic Church and her teachings, and a majority of them believe in some form of dispensationalism.

Harvard historian Paul Boyer, author of When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture (Harvard University Press, 1998), estimates that 30 to 40 percent of Americans believe in “Bible prophecy” and hold to eschatological beliefs such as those taught in the Left Behind novels. Admittedly, such numbers are difficult, if not impossible, to verify with any real accuracy. Still, it can be safely said that tens of millions of Americans believe in a pretribulation Rapture and would readily accept the Left Behind books as a fairly accurate, fictionalized depiction of the fast-approaching end of the world.

MYTH 2 —

“Catholic beliefs about the end times are quite similar to those of Fundamentalists such as Tim LaHaye.”

Studying dispensationalism (as in studying almost any theological system) is like exploring an iceberg—the vast majority lies beneath the surface, out of sight and unnoticed by the casual observer. On the surface, dispensationalists and Catholics appear to agree about the Second Coming, a future Antichrist, and an impending trial and time of apostasy. And, in fact, common beliefs about aspects of these teachings do exist. Although it comes as a surprise to many Fundamentalists, the Catholic Church clearly believes in the Second Coming, “a final trial,” and a “supreme religious deception...of the Antichrist” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 675).

As noteworthy as these agreements are, the differences between premillennial dispensationalism and Catholic doctrine are even more striking. Stripped to their bare essentials, these include three premises about the past and present, and two beliefs about the future.

The first dispensationalist premise is that Jesus Christ failed to establish the kingdom for the Jews during His first coming. Dispensationalists believe that Christ offered a material and earthly kingdom, but the Jews rejected Him. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), the ex-Anglican priest who formed the dispensationalist system, wrote, “The Lord, having been rejected by the Jewish people, is become wholly a heavenly person.” This dualistic notion was echoed and articulated by Darby’s disciples, including Cyrus I. Scofield (editor of the Scofield Reference Bible), Lewis Sperry Chafer, and many of the popularizers of the system. Leading dispensationalist theologian Charles C. Ryrie, in his systematic Basic Theology, gives this convoluted explanation: “Throughout his earthly ministry Jesus’ Davidic kingship was offered to Israel (Matthew 2:2 and 27:11; John 12:13), but He was rejected.... Because the King was rejected, the messianic, Davidic kingdom was (from a human viewpoint) postponed. Though He never ceases to be King and, of course, is King today as always, Christ is never designated as King of the Church.... Though Christ is a King today, He does not rule as King. This awaits His second coming. Then the Davidic kingdom will be realized” (Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:15 and 20).

This supposed failure leads to the second premise that the Church is a “parenthetical” insert into history. Put another way, the Church was created out of necessity when the Jews rejected Christ. Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), whose eight-volume Systematic Theology is the dispensationalist Summa, wrote, “The present age of the Church is an intercalation into the revealed calendar or program of God as that program was foreseen by the prophets of old. Such, indeed, is the precise nature of the present age.” The Church is not, in dispensationalist theology, the new Israel spoken of by St. Paul (see Galatians 6:16) but is utterly separate from Old Testament Israel. So long as the “Church age” continues, the Old Testament promises made to Israel are on hold, waiting to be fulfilled.

The third premise, so vital to dispensationalism, is the existence of two people of God: the Jews (the “earthly” people) and the Christians (the “heavenly” people). This is the language and theological vision established by Darby and taken up by leading dispensationalists ever since. In Rapture Under Attack (Multnomah, 1998), LaHaye notes that the pretribulational dispensationalist view is the “only view that distinguishes between Israel and the church,” and then remarks that “the confusion of Israel and the church is one of the major reasons for confusion in prophecy as a whole.... Pre-Tribulationism is the only position which clearly outlines the program of the church.”

As LaHaye’s statement indicates, these premises result in the belief of the pretribulation Rapture. This event is necessary because the heavenly people (Christians) must eventually be taken from the earthly stage so that the prophetic timeline can be “restarted” and God’s work with the earthly people (Jews) resumed. That work will involve seven years of tribulation, which dispensationalists believe will be a period of God’s chastisement on the Jewish people, resulting in the vast majority of Jews being killed, but also in the conversion of those remaining.

This, finally, leads to the second belief about the future: an earthly, millennial kingdom established by Christ for the Jews. Based on passages such as Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 40-48, this includes the claim that animal sacrifices will be renewed in a rebuilt Temple. Some dispensationalists think these sacrifices will be symbolic; others believe they will have salvific value, befitting a theocratic government.

All five of these points are incompatible with Catholic doctrine. Christ did not offer an earthly kingdom, nor did He fail, nor was He rejected by all of the Jews; His mother, the apostles, and the disciples were all Jews who accepted Him as the Messiah. The Church is not a sort of “Plan B,” but is, according to the Catechism, the “goal of all things,” reflecting the Catholic recognition of how intimately Christ has joined Himself to the Church (cf. Ephesians 5). The Old Covenant is fulfilled in the New, and there is only “one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: ‘For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body’” (CCC 1267).

Flowing from incorrect, flawed premises, the idea of a pretribulation Rapture is foreign to Catholic theology. Based largely on St. Augustine’s City of God, the millennium has long been understood (if not formally defined) to be the Church age—a time when the King rules, even though the Kingdom has not been fully revealed (cf. CCC 567, 669).

MYTH 3 —

“The Rapture is a biblical and orthodox belief.”

LaHaye declares, in Rapture Under Attack, that “virtually all Christians who take the Bible literally expect to be raptured before the Lord comes in power to this earth.” This would have been news to Christians—both Catholic and Protestant—living prior to the 18th century, since the concept of a pretribulation Rapture was unheard of prior to that time. Vague notions had been considered by the Puritan preachers Increase (1639-1723) and Cotton Mather (1663-1728), and the late 18th-century Baptist minister Morgan Edwards, but it was John Nelson Darby who solidified the belief in the 1830s and placed it into a larger theological framework.

This historical background leaves the dispensationalist with two options: claim the pretribulation Rapture is biblical but went undiscovered for 1,800 years, or argue that it has been the belief of “true Christians” ever since Christ walked the earth. Ryrie, in his apologetic Dispensationalism Today (Moody, 1965), makes a case for the former by stating: “The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and likewise if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false.” LaHaye and others argue for the latter, pointing to passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and Matthew 24 as clear evidence for the pretribulation Rapture (those passages make several appearances, for instance, in the Left Behind novels).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is especially vital to the dispensationalist:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There are three problems with claiming this passage refers to the Rapture. First, neither it nor the entire book of 1 Thessalonians mentions Christ returning two more times, or makes any reference to such a distinction. Second, dispensationalists believe the Rapture will be a secret and silent event, yet this passage describes a very loud and public event. This is all the more problematic because dispensationalists insist that they interpret Scripture “plainly” and “literally,” allowing for symbolism only when such is the obvious intent of the author. Finally, dispensationalists teach that all other New Testament references to Christ coming in the clouds (Matthew 24:30 and 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7) refer to His Second Coming but inexplicably deny that that is the case here.

1 Corinthians 15 and its reference to “the twinkling of an eye” is often used as a proof text but is equally unconvincing. The point of the passage is that Christians will be glorified at the Second Coming, not that they’ll be secretly whisked off the planet prior to the tribulation. It describes an event that will occur at “the last trumpet” and states that “the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Yet LaHaye and Left Behind coauthor Jerry B. Jenkins, reflecting the common dispensationalist interpretation, claim in Are We Living in the End Times? (Tyndale, 1999) that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming, which will include “a great sound of a trumpet” (Matthew 24:31). So how can 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of “the last trumpet,” refer to the Rapture when there is yet another trumpet to be sounded, several years later, at the Second Coming?

Some dispensationalists have admitted, at least in a backhanded fashion, the recent roots of the pretribulation Rapture. In an article titled “The Origin of the Pre-Trib Rapture” (Biblical Perspectives, March/April 1989), LaHaye’s colleague at the Pre-Trib Research Institute, Thomas D. Ice, writes that “a certain theological climate needed to be created before premillennialism would restore the Biblical doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture.” He continues: “Sufficient development did not take place until after the French Revolution. The factor of the Rapture has been clearly known by the church all along; therefore the issue is the timing of the event. Since neither pre- nor post-tribs have a proof text for the time of the Rapture...then it is clear that this issue is the product of a deduction from one’s overall system of theology, both for pre- and post-tribbers.” In fact, the Rapture as dispensationalists conceive of it was never part of the early or medieval Church’s theology but is the modern creation of Darby less than 200 years ago.

MYTH 4—

“The early Church Fathers believed in the Rapture and the millennial kingdom on earth.”

This clever argument, used by Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsey, and others, is effective in persuading those with little knowledge of historical theology or the beliefs of the early Church. True, several early Christian writers––notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus––were premillennialists who believed that Christ’s Second Coming would lead to a visible, earthly reign. But the premillennialism they embraced was quite different from that taught by modern dispensationalists.

Catholic scholars acknowledge that some of the Fathers were influenced by the Jewish belief in an earthly Messianic kingdom, while others embraced millennarianism as a reaction to the Gnostic antagonism toward the material realm. But the Catholic Church does not look to one Church Father in isolation—or even a select group of Fathers—and claim their teachings are infallible or definitive. Rather, the Church views their writings as valuable guides providing insights and perspectives that assist the Magisterium––the teaching office of the Church—in defining, clarifying, and defending Church doctrine.

Those early premillennialists did not hold to distinctively modern and dispensationalist beliefs, especially not the belief in a pretribulation Rapture and the radical distinction between an earthly and a heavenly people of God; such beliefs didn’t come about until many centuries later. The early Church Fathers, whether premillennialist or otherwise, believed that the Church was the New Israel and that Christians—consisting of both Jews and Gentiles (cf. Romans 10:12)––had replaced the Jews as God’s chosen people.

In attempting to prove the validity of their beliefs by appealing to early Church Fathers, dispensationalists always ignore the Church Fathers’ unanimous teachings about the nature of the Eucharist, the authority and nature of the Church, and a host of other distinctively Catholic beliefs. They also conveniently blur the lines between the historical premillennialism of certain early Church writers and the dispensational premillennialism of Darby and his disciples.

MYTH 5 —

“The Left Behind books are harmless entertainment that encourage Christians in their faith and help them better understand the Book of Revelation.”

Even when presented with the faulty theological premises underlying dispensationalism, some Catholics still insist that the Left Behind series is just good fun—a light read with a sound moral message. Some, however, go even further and claim the books have changed their lives, provided answers about the end of the world, and made sense of the Bible, particularly the Book of Revelation. Responding to my book, a Catholic reader wrote, “I personally believe that the dispensationalists have done Catholics a favor by alerting them to the serious times we live in and by encouraging them to search out the Scriptures.” She never makes mention of Catholic scholarship or magisterial documents.

Another Catholic reader of the series told me, “You condemn these books because they are successful.” In fact, I’ve strongly critiqued the Left Behind books because they’re written by a noted Fundamentalist (with serious animus toward the Catholic Church) in order to propagate a theology that is incorrect, misleading, and contrary to historic Christianity.

One message of LaHaye’s that comes across clearly in books such as Are We Living in the End Times?, Rapture Under Attack, and Revelation Unveiled is that the Catholic Church is apostate, Catholicism is “Babylonian mysticism” and an “idolatrous religion,” and Catholics worship Mary, knowing little about the real Jesus Christ. It’s difficult to overstate the dislike—even hatred—LaHaye has for the Catholic Church or to exaggerate the ridiculous character of his attacks. He condemns the use of candles in Catholic churches, insists there’s hardly any difference between Hinduism and Catholicism, and emphatically declares that the Catholic Church killed at least 40 million people during the “dark ages.”

When I asked LaHaye, via e-mail, why he never refers to Catholic sources or official documents in his writings, he replied:

Because I think that for centuries the Catholic Church has presented church history in a manner protective of “Mother church.” ...I have seen more concern on the part of your church for Hindus, Buddhists, and other pagan religions than they do [sic] for those who love Jesus Christ as He is presented in the Bible and are committed to making Him known to the lost so they will not be Left Behind.

In other words, the Catholic Church is simply wrong and doesn’t deserve a fair hearing. LaHaye has not only revealed himself to be an anti-Catholic polemicist but a theologian with a seriously skewed view of God’s salvific work. In a newspaper interview, LaHaye said, “We’ve [himself and Jenkins] created a series of books about the greatest cosmic event that will happen in the history of the world.” What is that “greatest cosmic event”? The Incarnation? The Cross? The Resurrection? No, the Rapture—a modern, man-made belief based on a distorted Christology and an anemic ecclesiology.

But don’t the books help people understand the Bible? According to contemporary Christian music star Michael W. Smith, “Left Behind has brought understanding and clarity to [the Book of] Revelation, a book of the Bible usually seen as confusing and dark.” This echoes LaHaye’s assertion that St. John’s Apocalypse “gives a detailed description of the future.” But a perusal of dispensationalist interpretations of the Book of Revelation written over the last several decades suggests otherwise. Dispensationalists disagree about nearly every major element of the book, including the identity of the Whore of Babylon (i.e., a reformed Roman Empire, the Catholic Church, Iraq, the United States), the mark of the Beast (i.e., computer chips, bar codes, social security numbers, laser technology), and numerous other entities, personages, nations, and events.

More importantly, dispensationalists give little attention to the rich Old Testament allusions or the first-century context of the Book of Revelation. To the contrary, Hal Lindsey proffers in There’s a New World Coming (Vision House, 1973) that “Revelation is written in such a way that its meaning becomes clear with the unfolding of current world events.” Considering that none of Lindsey’s interpretations of the book’s prophetic utterances has come to pass over the past 30 years—including his conviction that the Rapture would occur in the 1980s—one can only wonder at Lindsey’s unflagging confidence. Futurists such as dispensationalists have always been prone to read current events into the Book of Revelation’s mysterious passages, and prophetic speculators of the past connected it to the French Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, and the founding of the modern Israeli state in 1948. More recent events supposedly shedding light on St. John’s vision include the Cold War, the Persian Gulf War, and the conflict with terrorism and Iraq.

The appeal of the pretribulational Rapture is understandable. The idea that those living today are “the generation” who will see Christ’s return is attractive and intoxicating. “My prophetic studies have convinced me,” LaHaye writes, in Rapture Under Attack, “that we Christians living today have more evidence to believe we are the generation of His coming than any generation before us.” It’s no surprise that many people want to hear that they won’t have to die. Such promises of escape from suffering, illness, pain, and potential martyrdom are tempting, but they aren’t an option for Catholics. Each of us will endure suffering, and the Church will, one day, have to endure a final, great trial: “The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection” (CCC 677). The pretribulation Rapture, dispensationalism, and the Left Behind books, in the end, are long on promises and short on biblical, historical, and theological evidence.

Carl E. Olson is the editor of Envoy magazine (www.envoymagazine.com) and the author of Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”?: A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today’s Prophecy Preachers (Ignatius, 2003). He has written for First Things, This Rock, National Catholic Register, and other periodicals.


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To: Heartbreak of Psoriasis; 2sheep; BearWash; Jeremiah Jr; Yehuda
This is a fundamental threshold issue. The Bible tells us flatly that BEFORE we read the Scripture we must FIRST understand that no matter of prophecy is subject to private interpretation.

??? Do you mean the verses that explain that the prophets did not just pen their own words and ideas, but rather were instructed by the Spirit of God?

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

What, was Daniel a freelancing kook?

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Shame on Daniel, understanding Jeremiah's prophecy without a consensus of scholars! He should have known better!

61 posted on 12/19/2003 3:50:07 PM PST by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal
He didn't even use a Pope!
62 posted on 12/19/2003 3:53:12 PM PST by irishtenor (If animals weren't meant to be eaten, why did God make them out of meat?)
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To: Conservative til I die
*** We don't go invading their threads and forums in order to tell them how they're going to burn without Tradition.***


Not to quibble, but yes you do. Sources available on request.

Just the other day I was minding my own business on a Calvinist thread and was called a Heretic by one of your Catholic brothers.
63 posted on 12/19/2003 4:04:35 PM PST by Gamecock (Galatians 1:15)
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Comment #64 Removed by Moderator

To: Conservative til I die; drstevej
Exactly. You get some guy with little or no formal religious training, and all of a sudden they've "discovered" a hidden doctrine, central to Christianity, that everyone else just happened to miss for the last 1950 years? Riiiight....

Hal Lindsey, (the Late, Great Planet Earth guy) was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, which, agree or disagree with their theology, isn't exactly a diploma mill. That makes matters all the worse, because the guy SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER!

In light of his "testimony" and "Christian Witness", i'd $uspect more ba$e motive$ for Lind$ey rather than $imple bad theolgy, if you can $ee What i am $aying.

65 posted on 12/19/2003 4:43:56 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Gamecock
Just the other day I was minding my own business on a Calvinist thread and was called a Heretic by one of your Catholic brothers.

I bet I know who that was without even seeing the post(s).


66 posted on 12/19/2003 5:35:53 PM PST by rdb3 (The only problem I have with conservatism is conservatives.)
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To: GirlShortstop
****the Rapture -- a modern, man-made belief based on a distorted Christology and an anemic ecclesiology.****


Interesting. I heard a man on short wave radio claim that the rapture was a jesuit invention.
He was neo-nazi anti-catholic and anti-rapture claiming the British Israel theory.

Not all BAPTISTS have bought into the rapture theory. I don't believe the Southern Baptists have endorsed that view as they seem to believe the presbyterian amillenialist view.
However the writings of C I Schofield are making inroads in the SBC.
Read the writings of John R. Rice(Independent Baptist) on the end times. He believes in the rapture but makes no claims for what might happen after it. Now read the writings of Curtis Hudston, who now is head of the Independent Baptists. His end time writings are almost pure Schofield.
If you read Schofield's booklet on Dispensational Theology first then read Kirban, LaHay, Van Impe and Lindsey and Chick Publications you will find them all repeating the same things like little peas in a pod.
"Yes sir folks! It looks like the Middle east is lining up according to prophecy right now! The end times may be just around the corner! Better send in your money now"!
They have been saying this for the last 50 years!

67 posted on 12/19/2003 6:36:51 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Yehoshua at the time of the seventh plague is announcing that time for earth has come to an end, and the second coming follows immediately. So, Yehoshua does not come back to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues,

I agree, in part, that yes thee second coming Christ's return to EARTH does not happen until after the 7th bowl judgment. However, the rapture is a separate event from the 2nd coming.

1 Thessalonians 4 13:17
13 We believe that Jesus died and rose again. And because of what Jesus did, God will bring back with him those who have died.
14 We tell you what the Lord said. We who are still alive when the Lord comes, will not go ahead of those who have died.
15 The Lord himself will come down from heaven. There will be a shout, a great angel will speak, and God's loud horn or trumpet will be blown.

Notice that it says "a trumpet will be blown" not at the last trumpet blown.

16 Then we who are still alive on earth will be caught up together with those who were dead. We will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Note that the lord is met by the resurrected and those who are "still alive when the lord comes." Also note he meets them "in the air" he does NOT at this time, arrive IN the world.
This is where the church , or "bride" is collected and taken for the marriage supper. after the seal and bowl judgments are complete THEN the lord will return with the saints to set up his 1000 year reign, commencing shortly after the "great white throne judgment" that will be used to resurrect and judge the saints and people that lived in the Old Testament age.

And then we will be with the Lord forever!

1 Thessalonians 5
1 My brothers, you do not need anyone to write to you about the day or the year when these things will happened
2 You yourselves surely know that the day of the Lord will come just like a person who comes to steal in the night.
3 When people are saying, `Everything is quiet and safe,' they will be destroyed. It will all happen very quickly. And there will be no way out.

It goes on to warn the people to be vigilant in their belief in the lord and to encourage and help one another in spreading the word and love for the lord. I find this next part to be especially interesting.

11 My brothers, we beg you, tell this to people who do not do what they should do. Talk to those who fear, and say something that will make them strong. Help those who are weak. Be patient with all people.
24 I give you this order from the Lord. Read this letter to all the Christian brothers.

"I give you this order from the lord." Who instructs them to read this letter to all the Cristian brothers. Not all the churches, priests , prophets, ministers, or pastors but to their "Christian brothers" in Christ.

68 posted on 12/19/2003 7:05:43 PM PST by alexandria
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
***Hal Lindsey, (the Late, Great Planet Earth guy) was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary***

Nope. Hal attended Dallas Seminary but was never a professor. In fact, he did not have an undergraduate degree prior to DTS and was admitted as a special student. I think he was a riverboat captain prior to seminary.

Ryrie, Pentecost or Walvoord would be better examples of classic dispensational professors at Dallas. I studied under all three. You are right it is not a diploma mill. The four year Master's Program there was far more rigorous than my four year engineering degree at Georgia Tech. Much more work.

Lindsey's LGPE happened to be the popularizing book that caught fire with the public.
69 posted on 12/19/2003 7:30:16 PM PST by drstevej (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
"Yes sir folks!  It looks like the Middle east is lining up according to prophecy right now!  The end times may be just around the corner!  Better send in your money now"!  They have been saying this for the last 50 years!

Good post, and a LOL... you have a way with words!
M E R R Y   C H R I S T M A S
70 posted on 12/19/2003 8:31:56 PM PST by GirlShortstop
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
My daughter and her family have fallen into one of these obscure Southern Baptist independent cults. Ever hear of Peter Ruckman and his Pensacola Bible Institute?

It saddens me that my grandchildren are being indoctrinated with hatred of all races other than white, and the boys are displaying a definite anti-female stance.

Ruckman teaches there will be no women in heaven. This being due to the "fact" of his "inspired revelation" that all females wil be transformed into 33 year old males at the resurrection of the body.

Any suggestions from anyone on how to rescue them from this cult?
71 posted on 12/19/2003 8:48:39 PM PST by Palladin (Proud to be a FReeper!)
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To: redgolum
Don't worry
Jesus said "don't worry"
72 posted on 12/20/2003 2:51:27 AM PST by marbren
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To: drstevej
Drstevej, would you agree that understsnding the difference between Israel and the church is the key to understanding prophecy?
73 posted on 12/20/2003 3:11:03 AM PST by marbren
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To: redgolum
I am also LCMS. I agree with all church teaching except for replacement theology. Both of my last two pastors and I got along well as we did not argue about the issue. To me Holy Communion and Baptism in the LCMS is as close to scriptural teaching as you can find.
74 posted on 12/20/2003 3:18:21 AM PST by marbren
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To: marbren
***Drstevej, would you agree that understsnding the difference between Israel and the church is the key to understanding prophecy?***

Yes. That and a consistent normal hermeneutic where the promises to Abraham are not spiritualized.
75 posted on 12/20/2003 5:19:23 AM PST by drstevej (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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To: drstevej
When Jesus says "Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" does he refer to a literal future millennial kingdom on earth?
76 posted on 12/20/2003 5:32:29 AM PST by marbren
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To: marbren
It is my understanding that this refers to the coming Millennial Kingdom (literal and future). As such it is still a relevant prayer.

77 posted on 12/20/2003 5:38:12 AM PST by drstevej (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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To: Conservative til I die
These dispensationalist, "end times" books represent the worst of gutter theology.

I want to point out something here. You are always one of the first people to go whining about "anti-catholics", "bigots" and "cathoic bashers", and "catholic haters". I see you have done it on this thread also. But you go and post stuff like this about others beliefs..????

I don't think the above quote makes you a bigot or anti anything, that is not my point your comment does not offend me, I am secure in my beliefs and only feel pity for those who do not share them. But the comment does make you a hypocrite, given the whining you do about others. Just wanted to point this out to you:) Becky

78 posted on 12/20/2003 6:29:12 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: alexandria
The point is, that people are not spared the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4 13:17
14 We tell you what the Lord said. We who are still alive when the Lord comes, will not go ahead of those who have died.

Still alive. Meaning that some have perished. (the wicked/tares) The FIRST catching up or gathering is of the wicked for destruction. They are gathered first, thus the righteous endure the tribulation.

The tribulation IS the judgement, you CAN'T escape it.

79 posted on 12/20/2003 6:46:09 AM PST by ET(end tyranny) ( Deuteronomy 32:37 -- And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,)
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To: SoothingDave
Can you provide an example of this, I didn't see any ad hominem. Thanks.

An example: "LaHaye has not only revealed himself to be an anti-Catholic polemicist but a theologian with a seriously skewed view of God’s salvific work." {found in the 7th paragraph of The 5th Myth}

The rest of your post is irredeemable.

Now that comment was a perfect example of a ad hom. It is as if you are stating, "I figured that you couldn't possibly get it right, so I ignored your comment."
80 posted on 12/20/2003 7:15:21 AM PST by snerkel
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