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Five Myths About the Rapture
Crisis Magazine ^ | November 2003 | Carl E. Olson

Posted on 12/19/2003 1:47:09 AM PST by Heartbreak of Psoriasis

Three years ago I mentioned to a Catholic friend that I was starting to work on a book critiquing the Left Behind novels. I explained that it would thoroughly examine premillennial dispensationalism, the unique apocalyptic belief system presented, in fictional format, within those books. Premillennial dispensationalism teaches that the “Rapture” and the Second Coming are two events separated by a time of tribulation and that there will be a future millennial reign of Christ on earth. “Why?” she asked, obviously bewildered. “No one really takes that stuff seriously.”

That revealing remark merely reinforced my desire to write Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”? (Ignatius, 2003). Other conversations brought home the same point. Far too many people—including a significant number of Catholics—don’t recognize the attraction and power of this Fundamentalist phenomenon. Nor do they appear to appreciate how much curiosity exists about the “end times,” the book of Revelation, and the “pretribulation Rapture”—the belief that Christians will be taken up from earth prior to a time of tribulation and the Second Coming.

In the course of writing articles, giving talks, and writing the book, I’ve encountered a number of questions and comments—almost all from Catholics—that indicate how much confusion exists about matters of eschatology (theology of the end times), not to mention ecclesiology, historical theology, and the interpretation of Scripture. The five myths I present here summarize many of those questions.

MYTH 1 —

“The Left Behind books represent a fringe belief system that very few people take seriously.”

Exactly how many copies of the Left Behind books must be sold before the theology they propagate can be taken seriously? Fifty-seven million? That’s actually where sales stand as I write this, making the novels (consisting now of eleven books and supposedly ending with book 14) the biggest-selling series of Christian fiction ever. Then there are the two movies, CDs, children’s books, devotionals, greeting cards, and a host of other products, along with a Web site that attracts hundreds of thousands of fans every month.

But that’s only part of the larger picture. The biggest-selling work of non-fiction (other than the Bible) since 1970 is dispensationalist Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth (Bantam, 1970), which sold more than 40 million copies and established the blueprint for a number of other popular, self-described “Bible prophecy” experts (including Tim LaHaye, creator and coauthor of the Left Behind series). LaHaye’s first work of “Bible prophecy” was The Beginning of the End (Tyndale, 1972), essentially a carbon copy of Lindsey’s mega-seller. In the years that followed, Lindsey and LaHaye, along with authors such as Salem Kirban, David Wilkinson, Dave Hunt, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, and others, produced a string of best-selling books warning of the rapidly approaching pretribulation Rapture, the Antichrist, and the tribulation.

The success of these books and of the dispensationalist system isn’t “fringe.” Far from it—they’re actually quite main- stream, influencing even nominal Christians and non-Christians. It reflects a trend that has been steadily growing for several decades. While Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopalians dwindle in number and influence, Fundamentalist and conservative Evangelical groups continue to form and grow vigorously, making their mark increasingly in the secular realm. Many of these Fundamentalists—including “non-denominational” Christians, “Bible-believing” Christians, “born-again” Christians, Baptists, and Assembly of God members—are antagonistic toward the Catholic Church and her teachings, and a majority of them believe in some form of dispensationalism.

Harvard historian Paul Boyer, author of When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture (Harvard University Press, 1998), estimates that 30 to 40 percent of Americans believe in “Bible prophecy” and hold to eschatological beliefs such as those taught in the Left Behind novels. Admittedly, such numbers are difficult, if not impossible, to verify with any real accuracy. Still, it can be safely said that tens of millions of Americans believe in a pretribulation Rapture and would readily accept the Left Behind books as a fairly accurate, fictionalized depiction of the fast-approaching end of the world.

MYTH 2 —

“Catholic beliefs about the end times are quite similar to those of Fundamentalists such as Tim LaHaye.”

Studying dispensationalism (as in studying almost any theological system) is like exploring an iceberg—the vast majority lies beneath the surface, out of sight and unnoticed by the casual observer. On the surface, dispensationalists and Catholics appear to agree about the Second Coming, a future Antichrist, and an impending trial and time of apostasy. And, in fact, common beliefs about aspects of these teachings do exist. Although it comes as a surprise to many Fundamentalists, the Catholic Church clearly believes in the Second Coming, “a final trial,” and a “supreme religious deception...of the Antichrist” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 675).

As noteworthy as these agreements are, the differences between premillennial dispensationalism and Catholic doctrine are even more striking. Stripped to their bare essentials, these include three premises about the past and present, and two beliefs about the future.

The first dispensationalist premise is that Jesus Christ failed to establish the kingdom for the Jews during His first coming. Dispensationalists believe that Christ offered a material and earthly kingdom, but the Jews rejected Him. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), the ex-Anglican priest who formed the dispensationalist system, wrote, “The Lord, having been rejected by the Jewish people, is become wholly a heavenly person.” This dualistic notion was echoed and articulated by Darby’s disciples, including Cyrus I. Scofield (editor of the Scofield Reference Bible), Lewis Sperry Chafer, and many of the popularizers of the system. Leading dispensationalist theologian Charles C. Ryrie, in his systematic Basic Theology, gives this convoluted explanation: “Throughout his earthly ministry Jesus’ Davidic kingship was offered to Israel (Matthew 2:2 and 27:11; John 12:13), but He was rejected.... Because the King was rejected, the messianic, Davidic kingdom was (from a human viewpoint) postponed. Though He never ceases to be King and, of course, is King today as always, Christ is never designated as King of the Church.... Though Christ is a King today, He does not rule as King. This awaits His second coming. Then the Davidic kingdom will be realized” (Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:15 and 20).

This supposed failure leads to the second premise that the Church is a “parenthetical” insert into history. Put another way, the Church was created out of necessity when the Jews rejected Christ. Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), whose eight-volume Systematic Theology is the dispensationalist Summa, wrote, “The present age of the Church is an intercalation into the revealed calendar or program of God as that program was foreseen by the prophets of old. Such, indeed, is the precise nature of the present age.” The Church is not, in dispensationalist theology, the new Israel spoken of by St. Paul (see Galatians 6:16) but is utterly separate from Old Testament Israel. So long as the “Church age” continues, the Old Testament promises made to Israel are on hold, waiting to be fulfilled.

The third premise, so vital to dispensationalism, is the existence of two people of God: the Jews (the “earthly” people) and the Christians (the “heavenly” people). This is the language and theological vision established by Darby and taken up by leading dispensationalists ever since. In Rapture Under Attack (Multnomah, 1998), LaHaye notes that the pretribulational dispensationalist view is the “only view that distinguishes between Israel and the church,” and then remarks that “the confusion of Israel and the church is one of the major reasons for confusion in prophecy as a whole.... Pre-Tribulationism is the only position which clearly outlines the program of the church.”

As LaHaye’s statement indicates, these premises result in the belief of the pretribulation Rapture. This event is necessary because the heavenly people (Christians) must eventually be taken from the earthly stage so that the prophetic timeline can be “restarted” and God’s work with the earthly people (Jews) resumed. That work will involve seven years of tribulation, which dispensationalists believe will be a period of God’s chastisement on the Jewish people, resulting in the vast majority of Jews being killed, but also in the conversion of those remaining.

This, finally, leads to the second belief about the future: an earthly, millennial kingdom established by Christ for the Jews. Based on passages such as Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 40-48, this includes the claim that animal sacrifices will be renewed in a rebuilt Temple. Some dispensationalists think these sacrifices will be symbolic; others believe they will have salvific value, befitting a theocratic government.

All five of these points are incompatible with Catholic doctrine. Christ did not offer an earthly kingdom, nor did He fail, nor was He rejected by all of the Jews; His mother, the apostles, and the disciples were all Jews who accepted Him as the Messiah. The Church is not a sort of “Plan B,” but is, according to the Catechism, the “goal of all things,” reflecting the Catholic recognition of how intimately Christ has joined Himself to the Church (cf. Ephesians 5). The Old Covenant is fulfilled in the New, and there is only “one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: ‘For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body’” (CCC 1267).

Flowing from incorrect, flawed premises, the idea of a pretribulation Rapture is foreign to Catholic theology. Based largely on St. Augustine’s City of God, the millennium has long been understood (if not formally defined) to be the Church age—a time when the King rules, even though the Kingdom has not been fully revealed (cf. CCC 567, 669).

MYTH 3 —

“The Rapture is a biblical and orthodox belief.”

LaHaye declares, in Rapture Under Attack, that “virtually all Christians who take the Bible literally expect to be raptured before the Lord comes in power to this earth.” This would have been news to Christians—both Catholic and Protestant—living prior to the 18th century, since the concept of a pretribulation Rapture was unheard of prior to that time. Vague notions had been considered by the Puritan preachers Increase (1639-1723) and Cotton Mather (1663-1728), and the late 18th-century Baptist minister Morgan Edwards, but it was John Nelson Darby who solidified the belief in the 1830s and placed it into a larger theological framework.

This historical background leaves the dispensationalist with two options: claim the pretribulation Rapture is biblical but went undiscovered for 1,800 years, or argue that it has been the belief of “true Christians” ever since Christ walked the earth. Ryrie, in his apologetic Dispensationalism Today (Moody, 1965), makes a case for the former by stating: “The fact that the church taught something in the first century does not make it true, and likewise if the church did not teach something until the twentieth century, it is not necessarily false.” LaHaye and others argue for the latter, pointing to passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and Matthew 24 as clear evidence for the pretribulation Rapture (those passages make several appearances, for instance, in the Left Behind novels).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is especially vital to the dispensationalist:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

There are three problems with claiming this passage refers to the Rapture. First, neither it nor the entire book of 1 Thessalonians mentions Christ returning two more times, or makes any reference to such a distinction. Second, dispensationalists believe the Rapture will be a secret and silent event, yet this passage describes a very loud and public event. This is all the more problematic because dispensationalists insist that they interpret Scripture “plainly” and “literally,” allowing for symbolism only when such is the obvious intent of the author. Finally, dispensationalists teach that all other New Testament references to Christ coming in the clouds (Matthew 24:30 and 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7) refer to His Second Coming but inexplicably deny that that is the case here.

1 Corinthians 15 and its reference to “the twinkling of an eye” is often used as a proof text but is equally unconvincing. The point of the passage is that Christians will be glorified at the Second Coming, not that they’ll be secretly whisked off the planet prior to the tribulation. It describes an event that will occur at “the last trumpet” and states that “the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Yet LaHaye and Left Behind coauthor Jerry B. Jenkins, reflecting the common dispensationalist interpretation, claim in Are We Living in the End Times? (Tyndale, 1999) that Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming, which will include “a great sound of a trumpet” (Matthew 24:31). So how can 1 Corinthians 15, which speaks of “the last trumpet,” refer to the Rapture when there is yet another trumpet to be sounded, several years later, at the Second Coming?

Some dispensationalists have admitted, at least in a backhanded fashion, the recent roots of the pretribulation Rapture. In an article titled “The Origin of the Pre-Trib Rapture” (Biblical Perspectives, March/April 1989), LaHaye’s colleague at the Pre-Trib Research Institute, Thomas D. Ice, writes that “a certain theological climate needed to be created before premillennialism would restore the Biblical doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture.” He continues: “Sufficient development did not take place until after the French Revolution. The factor of the Rapture has been clearly known by the church all along; therefore the issue is the timing of the event. Since neither pre- nor post-tribs have a proof text for the time of the Rapture...then it is clear that this issue is the product of a deduction from one’s overall system of theology, both for pre- and post-tribbers.” In fact, the Rapture as dispensationalists conceive of it was never part of the early or medieval Church’s theology but is the modern creation of Darby less than 200 years ago.

MYTH 4—

“The early Church Fathers believed in the Rapture and the millennial kingdom on earth.”

This clever argument, used by Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsey, and others, is effective in persuading those with little knowledge of historical theology or the beliefs of the early Church. True, several early Christian writers––notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus––were premillennialists who believed that Christ’s Second Coming would lead to a visible, earthly reign. But the premillennialism they embraced was quite different from that taught by modern dispensationalists.

Catholic scholars acknowledge that some of the Fathers were influenced by the Jewish belief in an earthly Messianic kingdom, while others embraced millennarianism as a reaction to the Gnostic antagonism toward the material realm. But the Catholic Church does not look to one Church Father in isolation—or even a select group of Fathers—and claim their teachings are infallible or definitive. Rather, the Church views their writings as valuable guides providing insights and perspectives that assist the Magisterium––the teaching office of the Church—in defining, clarifying, and defending Church doctrine.

Those early premillennialists did not hold to distinctively modern and dispensationalist beliefs, especially not the belief in a pretribulation Rapture and the radical distinction between an earthly and a heavenly people of God; such beliefs didn’t come about until many centuries later. The early Church Fathers, whether premillennialist or otherwise, believed that the Church was the New Israel and that Christians—consisting of both Jews and Gentiles (cf. Romans 10:12)––had replaced the Jews as God’s chosen people.

In attempting to prove the validity of their beliefs by appealing to early Church Fathers, dispensationalists always ignore the Church Fathers’ unanimous teachings about the nature of the Eucharist, the authority and nature of the Church, and a host of other distinctively Catholic beliefs. They also conveniently blur the lines between the historical premillennialism of certain early Church writers and the dispensational premillennialism of Darby and his disciples.

MYTH 5 —

“The Left Behind books are harmless entertainment that encourage Christians in their faith and help them better understand the Book of Revelation.”

Even when presented with the faulty theological premises underlying dispensationalism, some Catholics still insist that the Left Behind series is just good fun—a light read with a sound moral message. Some, however, go even further and claim the books have changed their lives, provided answers about the end of the world, and made sense of the Bible, particularly the Book of Revelation. Responding to my book, a Catholic reader wrote, “I personally believe that the dispensationalists have done Catholics a favor by alerting them to the serious times we live in and by encouraging them to search out the Scriptures.” She never makes mention of Catholic scholarship or magisterial documents.

Another Catholic reader of the series told me, “You condemn these books because they are successful.” In fact, I’ve strongly critiqued the Left Behind books because they’re written by a noted Fundamentalist (with serious animus toward the Catholic Church) in order to propagate a theology that is incorrect, misleading, and contrary to historic Christianity.

One message of LaHaye’s that comes across clearly in books such as Are We Living in the End Times?, Rapture Under Attack, and Revelation Unveiled is that the Catholic Church is apostate, Catholicism is “Babylonian mysticism” and an “idolatrous religion,” and Catholics worship Mary, knowing little about the real Jesus Christ. It’s difficult to overstate the dislike—even hatred—LaHaye has for the Catholic Church or to exaggerate the ridiculous character of his attacks. He condemns the use of candles in Catholic churches, insists there’s hardly any difference between Hinduism and Catholicism, and emphatically declares that the Catholic Church killed at least 40 million people during the “dark ages.”

When I asked LaHaye, via e-mail, why he never refers to Catholic sources or official documents in his writings, he replied:

Because I think that for centuries the Catholic Church has presented church history in a manner protective of “Mother church.” ...I have seen more concern on the part of your church for Hindus, Buddhists, and other pagan religions than they do [sic] for those who love Jesus Christ as He is presented in the Bible and are committed to making Him known to the lost so they will not be Left Behind.

In other words, the Catholic Church is simply wrong and doesn’t deserve a fair hearing. LaHaye has not only revealed himself to be an anti-Catholic polemicist but a theologian with a seriously skewed view of God’s salvific work. In a newspaper interview, LaHaye said, “We’ve [himself and Jenkins] created a series of books about the greatest cosmic event that will happen in the history of the world.” What is that “greatest cosmic event”? The Incarnation? The Cross? The Resurrection? No, the Rapture—a modern, man-made belief based on a distorted Christology and an anemic ecclesiology.

But don’t the books help people understand the Bible? According to contemporary Christian music star Michael W. Smith, “Left Behind has brought understanding and clarity to [the Book of] Revelation, a book of the Bible usually seen as confusing and dark.” This echoes LaHaye’s assertion that St. John’s Apocalypse “gives a detailed description of the future.” But a perusal of dispensationalist interpretations of the Book of Revelation written over the last several decades suggests otherwise. Dispensationalists disagree about nearly every major element of the book, including the identity of the Whore of Babylon (i.e., a reformed Roman Empire, the Catholic Church, Iraq, the United States), the mark of the Beast (i.e., computer chips, bar codes, social security numbers, laser technology), and numerous other entities, personages, nations, and events.

More importantly, dispensationalists give little attention to the rich Old Testament allusions or the first-century context of the Book of Revelation. To the contrary, Hal Lindsey proffers in There’s a New World Coming (Vision House, 1973) that “Revelation is written in such a way that its meaning becomes clear with the unfolding of current world events.” Considering that none of Lindsey’s interpretations of the book’s prophetic utterances has come to pass over the past 30 years—including his conviction that the Rapture would occur in the 1980s—one can only wonder at Lindsey’s unflagging confidence. Futurists such as dispensationalists have always been prone to read current events into the Book of Revelation’s mysterious passages, and prophetic speculators of the past connected it to the French Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, and the founding of the modern Israeli state in 1948. More recent events supposedly shedding light on St. John’s vision include the Cold War, the Persian Gulf War, and the conflict with terrorism and Iraq.

The appeal of the pretribulational Rapture is understandable. The idea that those living today are “the generation” who will see Christ’s return is attractive and intoxicating. “My prophetic studies have convinced me,” LaHaye writes, in Rapture Under Attack, “that we Christians living today have more evidence to believe we are the generation of His coming than any generation before us.” It’s no surprise that many people want to hear that they won’t have to die. Such promises of escape from suffering, illness, pain, and potential martyrdom are tempting, but they aren’t an option for Catholics. Each of us will endure suffering, and the Church will, one day, have to endure a final, great trial: “The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection” (CCC 677). The pretribulation Rapture, dispensationalism, and the Left Behind books, in the end, are long on promises and short on biblical, historical, and theological evidence.

Carl E. Olson is the editor of Envoy magazine (www.envoymagazine.com) and the author of Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”?: A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today’s Prophecy Preachers (Ignatius, 2003). He has written for First Things, This Rock, National Catholic Register, and other periodicals.


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To: Heartbreak of Psoriasis
Some observations:

1) "Do not criticize the speck in your brother's eye until you have removed the plank from your own." I would like to see the author of this article apply the same level of research into Rome's Mariology.

2) Contemporary Christians often have a voracious appetite for escatology. Many recent converts jump into it head first when they should be reading and applying the Gospels. Escatology is not for newcomers to the Faith. Pastors and more experienced Christians need to do a better job of guiding converts in their new life.

3) Revelation must be approached through the Gospel. Jesus flat out stated that he will return in glory to judge the living and the dead. He described it when he said "What you did for the least of these, you did for Me". This view is affirmed by the Apostles and Nicene Creeds.

4) If we Christians remain patient, we will all eventually find out what will happen in the end times. Jesus wins- what more do we need to know.
41 posted on 12/19/2003 11:39:18 AM PST by bobjam
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Conservative til I die
Many evangelicals *are* anatgonistic towards Catholics.

That's been my personal experience, sadly. And one formerly Catholic Evangelical told me and my son (then 5) we were going to burn in hell - unless we joined them at their new member meeting, bring a covered hot casserole. Nice. This was several years ago at my sister's baby shower.

44 posted on 12/19/2003 12:04:24 PM PST by fortunecookie
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To: LAman
Yawn, it's the same "Soundbyte Christianity" we've heard a million times before.
45 posted on 12/19/2003 12:33:15 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: LAman
No, I meant that we are not going to be lifted out of this world before the tribulation. We are saved by grace. I can see how my posts might have seemed I was saying we are saved by suffering, but that was not by intention.
46 posted on 12/19/2003 12:33:50 PM PST by redgolum
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To: redgolum; BibChr
Noah and Lot were preserved from the fallout in their day.

22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day[3] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."[4] 37"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

47 posted on 12/19/2003 1:27:29 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: Heartbreak of Psoriasis; RnMomof7
Very interesting article ; what does it mean ?

One it means that many members of the roman church are reading
the
Left Behind series and then are actually reading the Holy Word of G-d.

This is dangerous to the Corporate position because as people read
the Holy Word of G-d they begin to understand the position presented
by the Corporation created in Nice by Constantine in 325 AD has many
flaws.

Second I notice the the author of this article descends into the lowest
form of argument (ad hominum) directed at the man, not the thought.

Third the author so blinded by his Corporate world view that he fails
to appreciate that the Blessed Hope of the pre Nicene church was
Jewish as was the Christ. If one reads the canons of Nice you will see
the rejection of all things Jewish, ( with it's concomitant anti-Semitism)
starting with the Death and Resurrection to the Christ
and it's creation of the pagan celebration of Easter and the rejection
of the L-rd's death and Resurrection on Pesach and hagMatzoh and First Fruits

The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the
prominent chiliasm, or millennarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign
of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before
the general resurrection and judgment. This belief was spiritualized following
the Council of Nice so as to not insult the Emperor. This led to greater
spiritualization. This lead to placing the wisdom of man ( or men in Rome)
as a greater authority than the Holy Word of G-d.

For a study of the first three books of Revelation see this post:

Have you ever been confused by the book of Revelation?

a bondslave to the Christ

chuck

48 posted on 12/19/2003 1:34:14 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>)
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To: XeniaSt
Second I notice the the author of this article descends into the lowest form of argument (ad hominum) directed at the man, not the thought.

Can you provide an example of this, I didn't see any ad hominem. Thanks.

The rest of your post is irredeemable.

SD

49 posted on 12/19/2003 1:49:06 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Ff--150
You suspected this was coming, maybe it's here...

LOL. It will get much worse.

More in Freepmail later - it's been a very hectic day.

50 posted on 12/19/2003 1:54:32 PM PST by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: SoothingDave; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; RnMomof7; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; ..


Can you provide an example of this, I didn't see any ad hominem. Thanks.

The rest of your post is irredeemable.

49 posted on 12/19/2003 2:49:06 PM MST by SoothingDave

Thanks Dave. I expected that from you.

Now how about the thoughts expressed.


a bondslave to the Christ

chuck

51 posted on 12/19/2003 1:58:56 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Keep in touch, 4CJ--Ff
52 posted on 12/19/2003 1:59:48 PM PST by Ff--150 (But my God shall supply all your need)
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To: XeniaSt
Thanks Dave. I expected that from you.

You're welcome.

Now how about the thoughts expressed.

I asked where the ad hominem was. I honestly don't remember seeing any.

You should be honored that I know your beliefs are so strong that I won't bother trying to disabuse you of your "Constantinian conspiracy" remarks.

SD

53 posted on 12/19/2003 2:06:31 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Heartbreak of Psoriasis
***20 Knowing this FIRST, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRERATION.***
Or, as it says in my Bible (NIV) - 20. Above all, you must understand that no prophesy of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation.

This clearly says to me that Scripture is not an invention of man, but by God. It isn't warning against a "private interpretation" it is saying that scripture is by God, not man.

By the way, you tell us not to "interpret" scripture, then you do it to assail us.

I am not dispensational, I am Amillenial.
54 posted on 12/19/2003 2:33:37 PM PST by irishtenor (If animals weren't meant to be eaten, why did God make them out of meat?)
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To: ET(end tyranny)
Go get 'em!
55 posted on 12/19/2003 2:34:45 PM PST by irishtenor (If animals weren't meant to be eaten, why did God make them out of meat?)
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To: Conservative til I die
And of course there is nothing but love shown by the Catholics towards the Proddies.


56 posted on 12/19/2003 2:43:59 PM PST by Gamecock (Galatians 1:15)
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To: XeniaSt
Oh good lord. You're ridiculous.
57 posted on 12/19/2003 2:47:39 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: XeniaSt
GUess you're not going to tell him about the ad hominems.
58 posted on 12/19/2003 2:48:13 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Gamecock
And of course there is nothing but love shown by the Catholics towards the Proddies.

Catholics generally don't care about Protestants. We don't go invading their threads and forums in order to tell them how they're going to burn without Tradition. It's just the way our Catholic culture is. We also don't talk like salesmen about salvation ("The Lord is knocking on the door to your heart, won't you consider giving him the key?") It's just the way we are.

Protestants on the other hand, tend to seek Catholics out because they're supposed to prostelytize and have had many of their beliefs phrased in a way that they are constantly contrasted with our beliefs.

To be honest, growing up, I never knew that many people actively hate the Catholic Church and that, in many regions of the country, the people are anti-Catholic. Not until I came here.
59 posted on 12/19/2003 2:51:34 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
***These dispensationalist, "end times" books represent the worst of gutter theology.***

Won't you be surprised when the fourth Secret of Fatima is fulfilled and one dons the white and gold chest high waders who besides being a pocket Fisher of Men is also the first calvinistic, dispensation, credo baptist Pope sent to help the RCC return to it's Tridentine roots so the Proddies will have real Catholicism to contend with.

Whom could that be?

60 posted on 12/19/2003 3:00:08 PM PST by drstevej (Exurge, Calvinisti, et judica causam tuam)
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