Five Myths About the Rapture

Crisis Magazine ^ | November 2003 | Carl E. Olson

[Conservative til I die]

The thing that concerns me about the Rapture theology is not so much that it threatens Catholics like me with a new "heresy virus" (any Catholic with even the rudiments of the Faith dismisses such enormous departures from Holy Tradition out of hand),

I disagree. For whatever reason (and the post-V2 Church itself is partly to blame), there are a lot of ignorant Catholics out there that are prone to bizarre theologies and cults.

[SoothingDave]

The churches who were addressed continuously throughout the first four chapters are no longer mentioned, I believe, because they are no longer on earth.

An argument from silence is pretty weak.

SD

[Conservative til I die]

(wow, could you possibly come up with a more abrasive and condescending term?)

I don't feel the need to mince words. Much of these "bookstore" theologies are thought up in hours or days by hucksters looking to make a dollar. And they're easily torn apart.

Compare to the the traditional theology first propogated by the Church Fathers that were discussed for hundreds of years. Truly great minds like St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas. Compare to Tim LaHaye and the "late great planet earth" dude.

[Conservative til I die]

I have read Darby and other advocates of the rapture. As a dyed in the wool LCMS guy, I tend to get a little skeptical when someone comes up with a brand new revelation by twisting around the words in Revelation and Daniel.

Exactly. You get some guy with little or no formal religious training, and all of a sudden they've "discovered" a hidden doctrine, central to Christianity, that everyone else just happened to miss for the last 1950 years? Riiiight....

In the old days they used to tar and feather such hucksters and run them out of town on a rail. And rightfully so.

[Conservative til I die]

Because Peter is viewed as a Catholic figure, he doesn't really matter, nor do his admonitions. I mean, how can he compete with Tim LaHaye and "Late Great Planet Earth Dude"?

[jboot]

Read LaHaye? Nah, I'd rather not. I tried to read the first "Left Behind" book, but the writing was execratable and I never finished the first chapter. I read his "commentary" on Revelation when I was a new believer, and I marvelled at how much of it stood without scriptural citation.

The pre-trib Rapture is an eschatological tradition among Protestants. It seems fantastical, and has little scriptural support, but it still finds a spot under the edge of the umbrella of orthodoxy.

BTW, I'm currently reading Augustine's Confessions. I also just finished City of God, and have some Aquinas on order.

[LiteKeeper]

Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil, Evangelical bump

[Heartbreak of Psoriasis]

Good point!

The problem for our brothers in Christ who cleave to sola scriptura is that St. Peter's letter is contained in Scripture itself and so is binding upon them (in contrast to Holy Tradition which they reject).

Now, I understand the fundamental principle of Biblical construction pertaining to sola scriptura to be that reasonable minds may differ on all matters EXCEPT when Scripture so clearly rules on an issue that the matter is not subject to legitimate debate.

I've pointed out above what appears to me at least to be precisely such an unambiguously clear Biblical injunction AGAINST private speculation on prophecy, and have yet to receive any sort of a reply.

Indeed, I've posed this question to many Dispensationalists over the years, and have yet to receive an adequate reply. Mostly just hemming and hawing.

This is a fundamental threshold issue. The Bible tells us flatly that BEFORE we read the Scripture we must FIRST understand that no matter of prophecy is subject to private interpretation.

Thus, it seems to me, and again I say this with all respect, that even by their own Protestant lights the entire Left Behind project is at radically at odds with the very Scriptures it purports to elucidate.

I ask one again the good Dispensationalists here to respond to this question.

[ET(end tyranny)]

First I noticed some variances with the following verses, depending on which bible a person uses.

Luke 17 (KJV)
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The verse in question is 37. I did a search on the word eagles. Got this.

From the Greek
105 aetos ah-et-os'
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

Ok... so why the mention of carrion? So, I checked other bibles.

Luke 17 (NIV)
37"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

Luke 17 (NASB)
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Luke 17 (AMP)
37Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17 (NLT)
37"Lord, where will this happen?" the disciples asked. Jesus replied, "Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near."[1]
Footnotes
1. 17:37 Greek Wherever the carcass is, the vultures gather.

Luke 17 (WE)
37 They asked him, `Where will this be, Lord?' He said, `The big birds that eat meat will go to the place where the dead body is.'

So, let's look at some parallel verses from Matthew.

Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It seems that corpse and vultures would be the more proper reading. Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the second coming of the Lord. In days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the second coming. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain at the second coming.

Revelation 19 (KJV)
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:

Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples when they are alone:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of G-d are still among them.

Now, go back and re-read Luke 17:26-30. Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the second coming. They will all perish.

Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Yehoshua is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and NOT be surprised.

Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and THEN in verse 15-

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Yehoshua has NOT come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Yehoshua at the time of the seventh plague is announcing that time for earth has come to an end, and the second coming follows immediately. So, Yehoshua does not come back to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.

Psalm 91 (KJV)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Proverbs 10
30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

[Sans-Culotte]

I read a few of the Left Behind books. I didn't take all of the theology seriously, but suspended my scepticism long enough to get caught up in the narratives (just as I did when I saw the movie The Omen). A few of the stories were pretty exciting, as I recall. It is nice that books about Christians attempting to survive in a post-modern world should be so popular.

The main thing I got out of the books was that they showed the danger of believing in "the Church" more than in God. Some Catholics take this to mean the RCC. In the books, after the rapture (and the Pope at the time was raptured, BTW), "the church" is taken over by heretical, pantheistic types who teach that all beliefs are valid, and that a belief in only one religion is "intolerant". This is a real danger today in all Christian denominations. Since the early part of Revelation deals with an apostate church, I thought it was effective of the books to portray such a church in the novels. The fact that the New World Order Church had a pontiff did not constitute an attack on catholicism, IMO. It was catholic in that it was all-inclusive of the religious denominations only.

Some sort of "meeting Christ in the air" has to take place, as this is promised in 1st Thessalonians. I don't concern myself with end-time prophecy much. Whatever will be, will be (or maybe has-been). I still think that the LB books can bring some people to a closer relationship with Christ and the Bible. I agree with the poster who mentioned that the real danger is from Da Vinci Code/Templar/Grail types of gnostic/heretical BS. If someone subscribes to the tribulation/rapture theory of his/her choice, yet believes in the divine Christ's complete work as the source of salvation, he/she could do a lot wors.

[Heartbreak of Psoriasis]

Your post is very interesting, but while it certainly contains many Biblical references it would nevertheless appear to be most un-Biblical.

That's because you are engaging in a private interpretation of Biblical prophecy in the very teeth of an unambiguous Biblical injunction against such private interpretations:

2 Peter 19-20.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this FIRST, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRERATION.

As I've written above, there is a FUNDAMENTAL threshold question here: how can one simultaneously claim fidelity to Scripture and then proceed with private speculations on prophecy that these same Scriptures flatly forbid?

Clearly, YOU CAN'T and it therefore follows that your private interpretations of Scripture are at best specious and worst willfully sinful.

The silence is deafening, my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ.

I await your considered reply.

[Conservative til I die]

A few of the stories were pretty exciting, as I recall.

Oh no doubt. My jabs at the theology have nothing to do with the entertainment value of the books themselves.

It is nice that books about Christians attempting to survive in a post-modern world should be so popular.

My guess though is that the audience is largely evangelical.

The main thing I got out of the books was that they showed the danger of believing in "the Church" more than in God. Some Catholics take this to mean the RCC. In the books, after the rapture (and the Pope at the time was raptured, BTW), "the church" is taken over by heretical, pantheistic types who teach that all beliefs are valid, and that a belief in only one religion is "intolerant". This is a real danger today in all Christian denominations.

Certainly. My problem with this though is that as a Catholic, I've been taught that the gates of Hell would never prevail against the Church.

[redgolum]

You are correct on the judgment of prophecy. Jesus also says that no one but the Father knows the day or the hour. That is part of the reason I reject the Left Behind group out of hand.

One of the problems in Christianity (not just non RC's by the way) is everyone tries to put their own spin on things. Some of it is to be expected, we all have our own point of view of the world, but we need to realize that God is beyond us. To many of the Rapture crowd believes that they can read Revelations like the newspaper.

[ET(end tyranny)]

It stops being a private interpretation when it is generally accepted because it is based on scripture.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

What good does it do anyone to have prophecies if no one is allowed to interpret them?

1 Cor 12
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

2 Peter (AMP)
19 And we have the prophetic word [made] firmer still. You will do well to pay close attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dismal (squalid and dark) place, until the day breaks through [the gloom] and the Morning Star rises ([1] comes into being) in your hearts.
20 [Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving).
21 For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit.

It helps when you read the verse in CONTEXT! It means that it isn't a personal interpretation, but one that comes from G-d, by way of the Holy Spirit.

[Tax-chick]

Later

[ET(end tyranny)]

One more thing.

2 Peter 19-20.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this FIRST, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRERATION.

Since you put your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION on the verse above, taking it out of context by IGNORING the verse that followed it...... your following words now fall squarely into your own lap. ENJOY!

Clearly, YOU CAN'T and it therefore follows that your private interpretations of Scripture are at best specious and worst willfully sinful.

[dangus]

After all, why should modern Christians get off easier than the disciples, whom, excpet for John, met grisly ends? Christ quite plainly asks to bear his cross with him; dispensationalism promises we'll be whisked away before the trouble starts.

[redgolum]

You are correct. We don't get a Free pass out. In fact, the Bible is clear that things will be HARD if you live out a Christain life.

[jjm2111]

Whoops. Wrong Thread. :) Wow, reading that made my head spin. BTW, Merry Christmas to all FReeper Christians.