Posted on 11/30/2003 5:21:17 PM PST by drstevej
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Bruce Nolan: How do you make someone love you without changing free will?
God: Welcome to my world.
The most Calvinist movie I've ever seen is the great "Unforgiven."
"Deserves got nothing to do with it."
We're watching "Bruce Pretty-Mighty" tonight. Should be interesting.
Herbie the elf wants to be a dentist. Rudolf wants to be accepted. Burl Ives just wants to sing.
Clearly Arminian. /sarcasm
Rudolf will be accepted, though many will whisper he drinks on the sly.
Burl Ives sang all he wanted, but alas, he sings no more.
(Hope I didn't spoil it for you.)
"Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consistent.
If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish?
There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."
The erroneousness of the reformers'teaching is obvious. It perverts the truly Christian understanding of God's justice and mercy, of man's worth and purpose as a free and rational being. God appears here not as a loving, merciful Father, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition.
The Orthodox Church also recognizes predestination, but does not consider it unconditional, that is, independent of men's free well and based on a groundless decision of the divine will. According to Orthodox teaching, God, as omniscient, knows, foresees the moral state of men and, on the basis of this foresight, preordains, predetermines for them a certain fate."
Putting on the flameproof suit in advance....
"But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state; He does not preordain either a virtuous or a sinful life and does not at all inhibit our freedom. Therefore, even the Apostle Paul, whom the reformers cite, very closely connects the teaching on predestination with the teaching on God's foresight. In the Epistle to the Romans, he explains this thought in detail, and, incidentally, says concerning predestina-tion: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son? Moreover whom he did pre-destinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). In this way, God predestinates to glory not according to His groundless arbitrariness, as the reformers think, but according to His foreknowledge of a man's merits accomplished through his free will."
Try this one out...
"The blessed Paul, while bound, sailed to Italy on a certain Alexandrian ship in order to stand before the Emperor. Suddenly in the middle of the deep night, a great storm arises. The wind blows strongly, the sea is turbulent. There is great mortal danger, no hope for salvation. Yet God, desiring to preserve His servant, sends him His angel with the message: Fear not, Paul... God hath given thee all them that sail with thee (Acts 27:24). Hearing this divine promise, the sailors were somewhat heartened that they would be saved and intended to leave the vessel and reach shore by boat. No, says Paul, except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:3 1)."
"You will also note that the swarm equates Calvinism, at least as they individually perceive it, with the Gospel message of the Bible; even to the point of claiming that Calvinism is the Gospel." -connectthedots
IT IS A GREAT THING to begin the Christian life by believing good solid doctrine. Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other.... there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.
-Charles Spurgeon in A Defense of Calvinism
Jean
I particularly enjoy his web pages listing sites with, as he puts it, "really bad theology." Now here's someone who can disagree without rudeness (IMHO).
I bookmarked this some time ago, but reminded of it now because it's authored by the same person who put together the Charles Spurgeon archive linked to in the previous post.
For the record, Martin Luther was an advocate of Absolute Double Predestination. In fact, all the major players of the Protestant Reformation were predestinarians.
In fact, in his famous debate against "Free-Will" with Erasmus, Luther made the following comment to Erasmus:
Moreover, I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account -that you alone, in contrast with all others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with the extraneous issue about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like -trifles, rather than issues- in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood (though without success); you and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and amied for the vital spot.
-Martin Luther in The Bondage of the Will, VIII Conclusion. (emphasis mine)
Luther, of course, was acknowledging that Erasmus recognized that the issue of "Free-Will" was the central issue of the Reformation. Erasmus, the life long Roman Catholic, advocated a humanistic "Free-Will" while Luther argued for a bound will.
Jean
I hear he has a really good article on "hyper-Calvinism"!
Jean
"Nobodysfool" posted a very detailed and extensive discussion of I Timothy 2:4 on another thread, and since Father Potapov makes I Timothy 2:4 the centerpiece of his argument against Calvinism I think that transposing the posted discussion of I Timothy 2 onto this thread would be useful.
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Here is a single passage which may be said to argue for "Unlimited Atonement." But HERE is where you commit a theological Error. For you will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race. But, in addition to asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception, and that His will is thus billions of times Overthrown, to assert what you do is very nearly to risk the Anathema in pursuit of defeating Calvinism!!
For does He not tell us in the Revelation of Christ unto John:
Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
And what also has He told us in Revelation, than the certainty that NOT "All Men without Exception" shall be saved?
Revelation 13:7-8 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.This is a True Prophecy of God; What Heresy, then, is this: that you should advise us that Paul teaches Timothy to pray for nothing less than that this very PROPHECY OF GOD -- (that NOT "All Men" shall be saved) -- should be overthrown?!?! That God has Foreknown and Prophesied to Us that NOT All men will be saved, but that -- so you tell us -- we should nonetheless pray for this Word of Prophecy to be Removed from the Book of Prophecy???Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
For Jesus Christ has said, regarding prayers according to His Will,
John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
So if you claim that it be according to His Will that we pray for the actual Salvific Redemption of every single human individual without exception, then you are claiming that Paul teaches us to pray for the Removal of those very Prophecies of which Christ says to John, it were a grave sin for any to Remove!!
But if this is not a Right understanding of this passage (and it is not, for they may NOT set Paul to War with John and Christ), then how should we read it? Is the weakness in the "desire" of the Lord (verse 4) that "all men" should be saved? No, for this is an effective desire, both to Wish and to Will; indeed, this same Greek word, for "desire", is found in Romans 9: 18 -- So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.; and this is a powerful Desire indeed, by which He has raised up pharoahs and ruled the affairs of men and nations!!
But the misunderstanding is to be found, in the treatment of "all men". For if it is taught as meaning, "all men" without exception, then in this verse, we are being taught to pray against the revealed prophecies of John’s Apocalypse. But if the verse is understood as having reference to verses 1 and 2, which immediately precede it, then we see in this our duty to pray for Kings and all in Authority and "all men" without distinction; even as He is pleased to save "all men" without distinction; -- though not "all men without exception", for not "all men without exception" will be saved, as is Revealed in the Apocalypse of John. And there are numerous other passages in Scripture where this same Greek word for "all" is translated in this way:
Matthew 4:23--"all manner of disease"
Matthew 5:11--"all manner of evil"
Matthew 10:1--"all manner of sickness"
Luke 11:42--"all manner of herbs"
Acts 10:12--"all manner of four-footed beasts"
Romans 7:8--"all manner of concupiscence"
1 Peter 1:15--"all manner of conversation"
Revelation 21:19--"all manner of precious stone"
124 posted on 11/30/2003 5:27 PM PST by nobdysfool (Arminianism is pre-school for Calvinists, but only the Elect graduate....)
So, we see that the Greek in I Timothy 2:4 is more correctly translated "All manner", else we would face the insurmountable problem of the Epistle of Paul being set against the Revelation of John.
Thoughts?
Good to see you again, OP
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