"As Christ, the author of all graces, became incarnate through the Blessed Mother, she is the channel of all the graces that we receive from God."
Posted on 10/27/2003 5:25:35 AM PST by Catholicguy
That is a myth. I am not allowed to interpret scripture. (I had it out with one of our RC brothers about that) Scripture interets Scripture? How is that possible you will say. Try this. It is written: "There is no God." If I interpret scripture, I would say, well there you have it, there is no God. Insted, I must look at the balence of scripture and I would see, in this very tiny example, The fool says there is no God.
A lot of churches, including those with false doctrine start out by taking one little piece of scripture and building their entire theology off of it. It might intrest you to know that my entire denomination is built on the writings of some of the most brilliant Christian minds ever. In other words, we arn not making this up as we go along.
the unfortunate result or fortunate depending on your perspective, is the case we are witnessing in the Episcopal Church. Frank "The Heretic" Griswold interprets the Levitical Laws concerning homosexuality one way (I would say incorrectly) while a more Orthodox Primate (say the one in Nigeria) interprets it another way (I would say correctly). But ultimately that leads to confusion, and I will quote a Freeper who commented about this, "God is not the author of confusion." So, I guess all I am saying, is that sometimes, Tradition is necessary to assist one in the interpretation of scripture.
All I can say is satan know scripture as well. This guy was elevated to a position of power by those in the visable church who are not in the invisable church. BTW, each denomination has evil doers inside it's walls. Mine, your's, everyone's. It has nothing to do with scripture, but with sin.
Scripture and Tradition together enhancing one another and strengthening the faith. I realize that that is probably the typical Catholci answer and does not put you at ease. Ultimately all I can say, is that there is truth outside of scripture, even scripture attests to that (Jn 21:25, Jn 20:30, I Corinthians 11:2, II Thessalionians 2:15 Acts 2:42). Ultimately, I don't see Catholic belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary as contradictary to scripture. Well that was a long-winded rambling answer, feel free to respond, and I'll reply when I get back from class and stuff this evening. God Bless
I think I touched on that. But we bwlieve that tradition must come from scripture. Christ did slam folks for clinging to the wrong tradition. And if I might gently remind you, there were some teachings in the RC church during the time of luther that were clearly wrong, but held as tradition. Had it not been for those, the reformation would not have happened.
Also, you see a lot of proddies arguing here. Don't confuse an intermural debate with what we agree on, Christ Saves.
God Bless
Right back at you! ;-)
"As Christ, the author of all graces, became incarnate through the Blessed Mother, she is the channel of all the graces that we receive from God."
"Accepi litteras vestras" to Anysius 392 A.D. from Pope Siricius
" Surely, we cannot deny that regarding the sons of Mary the statement is justly censured, and your holiness has rightly abhorred it, that from the same virginal womb, from which according to the flesh Christ was born, another offspring was brought forth. For neither would the Lord Jesus have chosen to be born of a virgin, if he had judged she would pollute the generative chamber of the Lord's body, that palace of the eternal King. For he who imputes this, imputes nothing other than the falsehood of the Jews, who say that he could not have been born of a virgin. For, if they accept this authority from priests, that Mary seems to have brought forth many children, they strive to sweep away the truth of faith with greater zeal."
YOPIOS echoes an ancient heresy. Even the Reformers disagree with you.
So very true.
Please define who you include in the 'Christian Church'. I was never taught this.
As time goes on, more and more truth is discarded by those following the oral traditions of their protestant progenitors.
Birth control, divorce, abortion for the "right reasons" all eventually came to be accepted. All happened after the Doctrines about Mary came under attack and were abandoned.
This is a great question. Actually, it’s several great questions. How can the Catholic Church say that Mary never sinned, when Paul says that “all have sinned”? Well, it’s simple, really: In the Bible, “all” doesn’t always mean “all individuals.” Sometimes it means “some of all types.” For example, when Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:32, NAS), He did not mean that He would draw each and every man, woman, and child to Himself. He meant that He would draw some people “from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9). In other words, it wasn’t just the Jews that would benefit, it was all people, all nations.
This is the sense in which Paul meant Romans 3:23. Paul spends the first two chapters of Romans demonstrating that the Jews and Gentiles are both equally guilty before God. In Romans 3:9, he writes, “We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” Then he writes, “There is no difference [between Jews and Gentiles], for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:22-23). That is, all nations are under sin, the Jews included.
On an individual level, however, there can be exceptions without violating the meaning of this verse. Obviously, Jesus Himself is an exception. He did not sin. Neither do young children, who, because of their immaturity, are incapable of making moral choices, and thus, are incapable of committing actual sins. Therefore, Mary could also be an exception, if God chose to make her one. Of course, “could be” is a long way from “is,” but I’m only trying to demonstrate here that the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness does not contradict the meaning of Romans 3:23 (that both Jews and Gentiles as a group, are sinners). Statements like “all have sinned,” while generally true, are not to be understood to mean that there can be no exceptions. For example, we know that as a general rule, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), but we also know that both Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), though they were sinners, never died.
Now, it’s certainly true that in the normal course of things, every baby is conceived in a state of Original Sin. Had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. Likewise, it is also true that every person who lives long enough to be capable of moral decision-making will commit actual sins. Again, had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. But the Catholic Church points out that there was nothing normal about the job Mary was given to do. Her role was different – and more important – than any other person’s in human history: to bear, give birth to, feed, clothe, protect, raise, and train the Son of God.
Catholics simply believe that God gave Mary gifts that were appropriate to her role as Jesus’s mother. It was not intrinsically necessary that she be preserved from sin, but it made her a more fitting vessel to bear the Son of God. And by the way, her preservation from sin was a gift, based solely on the merits of her Son. She, being human, was as much in need of a savior as the rest of us. But her role in salvation history was more difficult and more important than any other person’s. (Who among us would dare to say that his own role in history was more important than bearing and raising the Son of God?) Therefore, by God’s grace, she was saved more perfectly, and more comprehensively, than the rest of us. In essence, we are pulled out of the pit of sin; she was prevented from falling into it in the first place. So it is entirely appropriate for Mary to call God her savior, for He saved her in a most spectacular way.
If we look back in history, we find that Christians have known about Mary’s sinless condition from the very beginning. There are hints of it as far back as the second century, when it was common to compare her to Eve, who was also undefiled. It is explicitly taught somewhat later:
You alone and your mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?1
Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.2
Having excepted the holy virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins – for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin? – so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?3
It’s actually rather ironic that modern Protestants object to the Immaculate Conception and subsequent sinlessness of Mary, because, like the early Christians, Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, was a firm believer in it. He wrote, It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.4
1 Ephraim the Syrian, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8, A.D. 361.
2 Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118, 22:30, A.D. 387.
3 Augustine, Nature and Grace, 36:42, A.D. 415.
4 Martin Luther, Sermon, On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God, 1527.
It appears you fellas are better informed than any who have ever lived.
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