Virgin Mother of God

Wow! someone who actually read the verses instead of just calling me names and hitting the abuse button. I appreciate that a lot. I'm just starting to read your responses but the first thing I noticed is your use of conceived instead of impregnated. I believe you are reading something special into that word that precluded my suggestion. I simply don't see it. The word conceive means "to become pregnant with".

conceive is an active verb

impregnate is a passive verb

The Holy Ghost gave power to Mary to conceive Christ within her womb. He did not impregnate her with a child with no genetic connection to her.

The Holy Ghost gave power to Mary to conceive Christ within her womb. He did not impregnate her with a child with no genetic connection to her.

"to become pregnant with" is the intransitive, as in "you shall conceive a child"

Once again I appreciate your use of scripture to discuss and interpret scripture. I wish more people would do this. If it weren't for the verse about John the Baptist I would certainly not make this strange statement about conception. However it's there and Marianism iis too which is probably why the verse jumped out at me.

I know that Catholics deeply desire a more active role for Mary because of the much doctrine they have build around her so I know this doesn't sit well at all. I've not met very many Christians outside the Catholic church that have a problem with the concept though. The bible says God can raise sons of Abraham from stones so there is no problem with believing that God can raise up the Son of Man in what ever way He wants.

Unless you believe there is some difference between "Lord" and "God", this is an explicit statement that Mary is the Mother of God in the flesh.

Being conceived by the Holy Spirit is without precedent(sp). Apart from that she certainly carried Him and bore Him and nursed Him like any other mother. Further yet regarding the title "mother", she called Joseph His father. OK, that's Joseph who is certainly not His father in any normal sense but in some adopted or step father sense. The word Mother certainly doesn't undo what the verse about John the Baptist does.

Once again I appreciate your use of scripture to discuss and interpret scripture.

We Catholics are most capable of doing this.

"to become pregnant with" is the intransitive, as in "you shall conceive a child"

Do you see the linguistic difference between "the in vitro fertilization clinic impregnated my daughter 3 months ago" and "my daughter conceived her child 3 months ago"?

The Holy Spirit acted upon Mary by utilizing her genetic material to create Christ. Thus "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb" (St. Luke 1.31).

St. Luke also creates an implicit parallel between Adam and Christ (drawn out by St. Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15) in the manner of their creation. Thus: "who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God" (St. Luke 3.38) "And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (St. Luke 1.35) Now Adam was created by God using existing matieral "slime of the earth" (Genesis 2.7), not ex nihilo. Similarly, the Body of Christ was fashioned by God from Mary, not created ex nihilo - "a body thou hast fitted to me" (Hebrews 10.5). Thus Mary truly conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I know that Catholics deeply desire a more active role for Mary because of the much doctrine they have build around her so I know this doesn't sit well at all. I've not met very many Christians outside the Catholic church that have a problem with the concept though. The bible says God can raise sons of Abraham from stones so there is no problem with believing that God can raise up the Son of Man in what ever way He wants.

Yes, God could do anything He wanted, but that is not what He has revealed to us! Christ is of the flesh of Mary coming down from Abraham and David. St. Paul is most clear about this: "For no where doth he take hold of the angels: but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold." (Hebrews 2.16) and "Concerning his Son, who was made to him of the seed of David, according to the flesh" (Romans 1.3) "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman" (Galatians 4.4)

Christ in the flesh is the physical genetic descendant of Mary, and through her, David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.

The Holy Spirit acted upon Mary by utilizing her genetic material to create Christ. Thus "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb" (St. Luke 1.31).
St. Luke also creates an implicit parallel between Adam and Christ (drawn out by St. Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15) in the manner of their creation.
Thus: "who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God" (St. Luke 3.38) "And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (St. Luke 1.35) Now Adam was created by God using existing matieral "slime of the earth" (Genesis 2.7), not ex nihilo. Similarly, the Body of Christ was fashioned by God from Mary, not created ex nihilo - "a body thou hast fitted to me" (Hebrews 10.5). Thus Mary truly conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, God could do anything He wanted, but that is not what He has revealed to us! Christ is of the flesh of Mary coming down from Abraham and David. St. Paul is most clear about this: "For no where doth he take hold of the angels: but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold." (Hebrews 2.16) and "Concerning his Son, who was made to him of the seed of David, according to the flesh" (Romans 1.3) "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman" (Galatians 4.4)
Christ in the flesh is the physical genetic descendant of Mary, and through her, David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.

Yes that parallel is certainly there, no question. Even the use of the word seed in various places makes one want to see it as requiring Mary's seed.

I agree that there are countless verses that ascribe humanity to the Lord and His descent and lineage also. He is "of" the Jews, He is "of" Abraham, He is "of" Eve etc. His humanity and descent are certainly not in question in my mind at all.

But then there is that John the Baptist verse. It is like the verse where Jesus said "Why do you call me good, there is no one good but God". He seems to be denying something about Himself and the verse really catches our attention. The other verse He denys something about Himself also while making an amazing statement about John and showing that being born again is better than any goodness one might achieve by any other means.

So the lowest and worst Christian is better than John which shows that John is not a Christian. No surprise there because he died before pentacost. So either Jesus excludes Himself from the idea of "Of men born of women" because He didn't count the natural part of His existance or something, or He is not of her in the seed sense since we know that He is clearly greater than John.

The verse is certainly very valuable for showing the significance of being born again but it sure seems to contain more than that. Since He is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven instead of being the least there, and was never not that even at His conception, maybe He doesn't even count Himself as having a "born of woman only" component.

BTTT of January 1, 2005, Solemnity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God!

Ping

good read

American Cathlic's Saint of the Day

January 1, 2005

Mary, Mother of God

Mary’s divine motherhood broadens the Christmas spotlight. Mary has an important role to play in the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. She consents to God’s invitation conveyed by the angel (Luke 1:26-38). Elizabeth proclaims: “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:42-43, emphasis added). Mary’s role as mother of God places her in a unique position in God’s redemptive plan.

Without naming Mary, Paul asserts that “God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4:4). Paul’s further statement that “God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying out ‘Abba, Father!’“ helps us realize that Mary is mother to all the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Some theologians also insist that Mary’s motherhood of Jesus is an important element in God’s creative plan. God’s “first” thought in creating was Jesus. Jesus, the incarnate Word, is the one who could give God perfect love and worship on behalf of all creation. As Jesus was “first” in God’s mind, Mary was “second” insofar as she was chosen from all eternity to be his mother.

The precise title “Mother of God” goes back at least to the third or fourth century. In the Greek form Theotokos (God-bearer), it became the touchstone of the Church’s teaching about the Incarnation. The Council of Ephesus in 431 insisted that the holy Fathers were right in calling the holy virgin Theotokos. At the end of this particular session, crowds of people marched through the street shouting: “Praised be the Theotokos!” The tradition reaches to our own day. In its chapter on Mary’s role in the Church, Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church calls Mary “Mother of God” 12 times.

Comment:

Other themes come together at today’s celebration. It is the Octave of Christmas: Our remembrance of Mary’s divine motherhood injects a further note of Christmas joy. It is a day of prayer for world peace: Mary is the mother of the Prince of Peace. It is the first day of a new year: Mary continues to bring new life to her children—who are also God’s children.

Quote:

“The Blessed Virgin was eternally predestined, in conjunction with the incarnation of the divine Word, to be the Mother of God. By decree of divine Providence, she served on earth as the loving mother of the divine Redeemer, an associate of unique nobility, and the Lord’s humble handmaid. She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 61).

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Pretty sad to find such carping and bickering on a thread devoted to Mary. Shame on those who presume to correct our beliefs and then do so by becoming her detractors.

You write, "As time goes on, more and more truth is discarded by those following the oral traditions of their protestant progenitors." Well I hate to say it but in our local Roman Catholic Church, people are almost squeamish about devotion to Mary. They downplay it when they mention it at all. You would almost think there's something radical about praying to the Mother of God. And this is in most other ways a very traditional, conservative community. I hope it's not a trend.

THANKS FOR THE PING!