Posted on 10/08/2003 1:34:33 PM PDT by Aurelius
Gentlemen: I have transcribed this article from an English paper entitled "The Globe and Traveller" of September 2nd, 1864, of which I have an original in my possession. It is a negotiation interview between Jefferson Davis and Judah Benjamin of the Confederacy, and Colonel Jaques and J. R. Gilmore of the Union. I have emboldened a part that sums up what the South was all about.
Warmest Regards ...Brian Lee Merrill
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The Globe and Traveller (England) Friday Evening, September 2, 1864
AN INTERVIEW WITH PRESIDENT DAVIS
The Atlantic Monthly in an article in the September number gives a narrative of Colonel Jaque's interview with President Davis, which took place some time ago, exciting a great deal of curiosity at the time. The narrative is from the pen of J. R. Gilmore, a companion of Colonel Jaques. The substance of the communication between the President and the two negotiators was made public at the time, but the following extract will give a better idea of the proposal discussed:-
Colonel Jaques: "Suppose the two Governments agree to something like this:- to go to the people with two propositions - say, peace, with disunion and Southern independence, as your proposition, and peace, with union, emancipation, no confiscation, and universal amnesty, as ours. Let the citizens of all the United States (as they existed before the war) vote "Yes" or "No" on these two propositions, at a special election, within 60 days. If a majority votes disunion, our Government to be bound by it, and to let you go in peace; if a majority votes union, yours to be bound by it, and to stay in peace. The two Governments can contract in this way, and the people, though unconstitutionally unable to decide on peace or war, can elect which of the two propositions shall govern their rulers. Let Lee and Grant meanwhile agree to an armistice. This would sheath the sword; and if once sheathed would never again be drawn by this generation."
President Davis: "The plan is altogether impracticable. If the South were only one state it might work; but, as it is, if one Southern state objected to the emancipation, it would nullify the whole thing, for you are aware that the people of Virginia cannot vote slavery out of South Carolina, nor the people of South Carolina vote it out of Virginia."
Colonel Jaques: "But three-fourths of the States can amend the constitution. Let it be done in that way, in any way, so that it be done by the people. I am not a statesman or a politician, and I do no know just how such a plan could be carried out; but you get the idea - that the people shall decide the question."
President Davis:"That the majority shall decide it you mean. We seceded to rid ourselves of the rule of the majority, and this would subject us to it again."
Colonel Jaques: "But the majority must rule finally, either with bullets or ballots."
President Davis:"I am not so sure of that. Neither current events nor history shows that the majority rules, or ever did rule. The contrary, I think, is true. Why, Sir, the man who should go before the Southern people with such a proposition, with any proposition which implied that the North was to have a voice in determining the domestic relations of the South, could not live here a day. He would be hanged to the first tree, without judge or jury."
Colonel Jaques: "Allow me to doubt that. I think it more likely he would be hanged if he let the Southern people know the majority couldn't rule," I replied smiling.
President Davis:"I have no fear of that," rejoined Mr. Davis, also smiling good humouredly. "I give you leave to proclaim it from every housetop in the South."
Colonel Jaques: "But, seriously, sir, you let the majority rule in a single State: why not let it rule in the whole country?"
President Davis:"Because the states are independent and sovereign. The country is not. It is only a confederation of states; or rather it was; it is now two confederations."
Colonel Jaques: "Then we are not a people - we are only a political partnership?"
President Davis:"That is all."
Judah Benjamin: "Your very name, sir, 'United States,' implies that," said Mr. Benjamin. "But tell me, are the terms you have named - emancipation, no confiscation, and universal amnesty - the terms which Mr. Lincoln authorised you to offer us?"
Colonel Jaques: "No, sir; Mr. Lincoln did not authorise me to offer you any terms. But I think both he and the Northern people, for the sake of peace, would assent to some such conditions."
President Davis:"They are very generous," replied Mr. Davis, for the first time during the interview showing some angry feeling. "But amnesty, Sir, applies to criminals. We have committed no crime. Confiscation is of no account, unless you can enforce it. And emancipation! You have already emancipated nearly two millions of our slaves, and if you will take care of them you may emancipate the rest. I had a few when the war began. I was of some use to them; they never were of any to me. Against their will you 'emancipated' them, and you may 'emancipate' every Negro in the Confederacy, but we will be free. We will govern ourselves. We will do it if we have to see every Southern plantation sacked, and every Southern city in flames."
Colonel Jaques: "I see, Mr. Davis, it is useless to continue this conversation," I replied, "and you will pardon us, if we have seemed to press our views with too much pertinacity. We love the old flag, and that must be our apology for intruding upon you at all."
Colonel Jaques: As we were leaving the room Mr. Davis said,
President Davis:"Say to Mr. Lincoln from me that I [shall be] at any time he pleased to receive proposals for peace on the basis of our independence. It will be useless to approach me with any other."
Colonel Jaques: When we went out Mr. Benjamin called Judge Ould, who had been waiting during the whole interview - two hours - at the other end of the hall, and we passed down the stairway together. As I put my arm within that of the judge, he said to me- "Well, what is the result?" "Nothing but war - war to the knife." "Ephraim is joined to his idols - let him alone," added the Colonel solemnly.
I get soooooo tiresd of doing this time and time again. READ THE CONSTITUTION, DAMNIT!!!! Lincoln had no authority to free slaves in states or areas of states that were under the jurisdiction of US Courts. To do that required an Amendment to the Constitution which did not happen until Dec. of 1865. As Commander in Chief, he did have the power, under military order, to free slaves in areas that rejected the authority of US Courts and were in rebellion. Were any slaves suddenly freed on Jan. 1, 1863 when the EP was issued? No. But with each passing day as Union troops advanced, from that point forward until June 19, of 1865 when Union General Granger took control of Texas and read the Emancipapion Proclamation and freed 250,000 Texas slaves, several million slaves were permantly freed under the terms of the EP.
I get so tired of doing this over and over again.
That's the same power President Bush has to free all the slaves on Mars. President Lincoln exercised no real power in areas that were not under Union Army control. What part of "rebellion" do you not understand?
And in a matter of 2 1/2 years from the day the EP was issued, every square inch of rebel territory was under the control of the Union Army, and every slave in that territory was free.
What part of Civil War history is it that don't you understand?
OK, I'll do it.
Shh.
you
Shh.
"get it";
Shh.
I don't
Shh.
think so.
Shh.
And that was a pre-emptive "shh". /Dr. Evil :-)
Depending upon you definition of "control," you might be surpised at the number of square miles that aren't under any effective government control now.
The generally accepted end date of the Civil War was June 19, 1865 when General Gordon Granger landed his troops in Galvaston and the Texas Confederate government ceased to exist. Stand Waitie could have run around longer up in Indian territory for all I know, but he didn't control anything and was pretty much meaningless. Yes, it took some days or weeks for the news to reach outlying districts, but June 19, the day Texas fell, is the date that Texas blacks, to this day, celebrate emancipation from slavery. That emancipation was under the terms of Lincoln's Jan. 1, 1863 executive order.
As the federal government had no authority in the states currently in rebellion no slaves were freed. But as the Union armies marched south and occupied areas of the south, slaves were indeed freed. As this interview was conducted in September of 1864, Unions armies had by this time moved deeply into southern territory and freed numerous slaves.
That would be the idiots who fired on Fort Sumter.
Were any slaves suddenly freed on Jan. 1, 1863 when the EP was issued? No. But with each passing day as Union troops advanced, from that point forward until June 19, of 1865 when Union General Granger took control of Texas and read the Emancipapion Proclamation and freed 250,000 Texas slaves, several million slaves were permantly freed under the terms of the EP.
41 posted on 10/10/2003 8:44 AM PDT by Ditto
So expelling the black population is OK because the south was kind to Native Americans and Jews? Oh wait, there was that little matter of the 'Trail of Tears', wasn't there. Oh well, one out of three ain't bad.
Maybe you need to type slower so that they understand? After all these are the people who insist it wasn't about slavery.
"Just so you know, I have a whole bag of "shh" here with your name on it." -Dr. Evil
Among the reminiscences of Lincoln left by Editor Henry J. Raymond, is the following:
Among the stories told by Lincoln, which is freshest in my mind, one which he related to me shortly after its occurrence, belongs to the history of the famous interview on board the River Queen, at Hampton Roads, between himself and Secretary Seward and the rebel Peace Commissioners. It was reported at the time that the President told a "little story" on that occasion, and the inquiry went around among the newspapers, "What was it?"
The New York Herald published what purported to be a version of it, but the "point" was entirely lost, and it attracted no attention. Being in Washington a few days subsequent to the interview with the Commissioners (my previous sojourn there having terminated about the first of last August), I asked Mr. Lincoln one day if it was true that he told Stephens, Hunter and Campbell a story.
"Why, yes," he replied, manifesting some surprise, "but has it leaked out? I was in hopes nothing would be said about it, lest some over-sensitive people should imagine there was a degree of levity in the intercourse between us." He then went on to relate the circumstances which called it out. "You see," said he, "we had reached and were discussing the slavery question. Mr. Hunter said, substantially, that the slaves, always accustomed to an overseer, and to work upon compulsion, suddenly freed, as they would be if the South should consent to peace on the basis of the 'Emancipation Proclamation,' would precipitate not only themselves, but the entire Southern society, into irremediable ruin. No work would be done, nothing would be cultivated, and both blacks and whites would starve!"
Said the President: "I waited for Seward to answer that argument, but as he was silent, I at length said: 'Mr. Hunter, you ought to know a great deal better about this argument than I, for you have always lived under the slave system. I can only say, in reply to your statement of the case, that it reminds me of a man out in Illinois, by the name of Case, who undertook, a few years ago, to raise a very large herd of hogs. It was a great trouble to feed them, and how to get around this was a puzzle to him. At length he hit on the plan of planting an immense field of potatoes, and, when they were sufficiently grown, he turned the whole herd into the field, and let them have full swing, thus saving not only the labor of feeding the hogs, but also that of digging the potatoes. Charmed with his sagacity, he stood one day leaning against the fence, counting his hogs, when a neighbor came along.
"'Well, well,' said he, 'Mr. Case, this is all very fine. Your hogs are doing very well just now, but you know out here in Illinois the frost comes early, and the ground freezes for a foot deep. Then what you going to do?'
"This was a view of the matter which Mr. Case had not taken into account. Butchering time for hogs was 'way on in December or January! He scratched his head, and at length stammered: 'Well, it may come pretty hard on their snouts, but I don't see but that it will be "root, hog, or die."'" -- (from Lincoln's Yarns and Stories , by Colonel Alexander K. McClure)
Since it is obvious that Mr. Hunter was concerned with the white population dying, what with losing their workforce and all, then it's obvious that Lincoln was telling him that it was the privilaged planter society that would have to 'root, hog, or die' and not the former slaves.
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