My answer to signs here in Texas..........Stay Safe !
Posted on 09/29/2003 8:27:26 AM PDT by jdege
MINNEAPOLIS - When the upset customer threw the menu in his face, restaurant owner Thomas Pham stood fast.
Like it or not, he insisted, guns were not permitted in Azia, a popular nightspot in the hip Uptown neighborhood of Minneapolis.
"I just told him that's the way it is; we have a business to run," Pham said.
So it goes these days in Minnesota, where a new law allowing residents to carry concealed firearms has stirred tension between people with guns and people who do not want them around.
Missouri will have concealed weapons starting Oct. 11, born of a yearslong drive by rural residents and conservative lawmakers similar to the one that led to the legislation passing in Minnesota four months ago.
If Missourians want to find out what life with concealed weapons will be like, Minnesota's experience might be telling.
The two state laws are similar. Both allow private property owners to post signs banning guns, a sore spot with permit holders who want to visit places such as Azia.
Outwardly, though, not much looks different in Minnesota since the gun law passed - save for the "No Guns" signs.
"I thought it was going to be like Dodge City, with people walking around with guns," said Mike Pangerl, dining over pizza at a packed suburban Minneapolis bar. "It hasn't been like that."
But that's not to say the guns aren't out there. More than 11,000 permits have been issued or are pending so far in Minnesota, but you cannot tell who is carrying, because the purpose of the law is to permit concealment.
Erik Larsen, who works at the counter of Booksmart in Minneapolis, said he did not look at every customer and wonder whether they had a weapon.
"It hasn't come to that point yet, but if we get to 50,000 people, it might," Larsen said, referring to a state estimate of how many residents might eventually get a permit.
In Missouri, state officials predict 60,000 people eventually will apply for permits.
Who's carrying in Minnesota?
Glenn Stanfield is a file clerk. John Lee runs a Dairy Queen. Andy Cers is an architect. Bob Letendre sells and leases cars. John Caile sells real estate.
They all have permits to carry guns under the new Minnesota law.
Permit holders in Minnesota apparently are mostly men, though no statewide data are kept. In Carver County on the Twin Cities outskirts, for example, 169 of 177 permits issued by mid-September were to men.
Some permit holders carry a gun rarely. Some said they carried it most of the time when not working.
"I carry it when I think I have a reason to - in parts of town I don't feel entirely comfortable with or late at night, especially," Cers said.
Cers takes pride in carrying the weapon where it cannot be seen. Did he have it on him, a reporter asked upon meeting him?
"Well, you never know," he said, laughing.
Actually, he had it in a holster on his right side under his leather jacket. A bulge was apparent. He sometimes also carries it in a belt hanging from his shoulder.
Stanfield sticks his pistol unholstered in the middle of his back under his belt, though a holster is advised for most carriers.
"The shape of my body keeps it secure," said Stanfield, who is on the short and stout side. "I have run with it in this position to check it out."
Lee simply sticks his small gun into his pants pocket. Other people use a fanny pack. Caile puts his gun in his holster on his right hip, hammer cocked, safety on. Most guns sold for concealment do not have hammers, because they can catch on clothing.
Caile, spokesman for the Concealed Carry Reform NOW that helped pass the law, said he was comfortable having the gun so accessible. It looks as if it could be drawn quickly.
"No one practices quick draw or anything like that," Caile said. "We encourage people to practice carefully drawing and firing the firearm."
Gun-permit holders said they were armed but not dangerous.
In fact, Stanfield said, carrying a gun forces him to be more cautious and responsible. He will go out of his way to avoid confrontations, such as over a parking spot, he said.
"With the political pressure we have here in Minnesota, you are going to be under great scrutiny for even considering using a gun for personal protection," Stanfield said.
Guns sold for concealed carry range from a light titanium model to a heavy steel one, said Tom Martin, who spread out an assortment of guns on the counter of Bill's Gun Shop and Range in a Minneapolis suburb. One available gun looks like a fountain pen but fires just one round.
Martin, the store manager, said the concealed-carry law had not been the boon for handgun sales that opponents had predicted. He said he saw only a 20 percent sales increase, because most people already owned guns.
Permit holders said they had the guns to defend themselves and possibly other citizens, but a recent poll in the Minneapolis Star Tribune suggests that most people are ill at ease with more guns around.
Fifty-one percent of respondents said the law made the state more dangerous, 11 percent said it would be safer, and 35 percent said it would have no effect. Slightly more people had safety concerns in a similar April poll.
Signs, signs, signs
The most controversial fallout from the Minnesota gun law is the posting of signs banning weapons. People on both sides of the issue are griping, and some residents say they provide little comfort.
"It's kind of scary when you walk into a building and see those signs up," Jaime Crain of Duluth said during a shopping break at the Mall of America, where signs are posted. "I feel less safe."
Unlike the new Missouri law, in Minnesota the law dictates wording that must be on the signs. But some businesses have challenged that while inserting a little humor into the signs.
At Azia, the sign includes the wording "Your wits are your only weapon in here." The sign has an illustration of a woman toting a rifle.
At a nearby restaurant called Bar Abilene, the sign depicts a gun with a line drawn across it and reads: "Don't be bringin' your piece into our corral."
Bar Abilene manager Aaron Smith said he took a lighthearted approach but was serious about trying to keep guns away.
"Obviously, people are going to conceal weapons one way or the other, but this is to let people know we are looking after their best interests and don't want to bring that element into our establishment," Smith said.
The signs irk some gun carriers, who see it as infringing on their rights. Some of them boycott places with signs.
"The signs are ridiculous," said Joe DeSua, a materials manager for a company that makes light poles and flagpoles. "My company has one up, and all they do is stop people like me who are law-abiding in the first place."
Caile goes further: "I see no difference between a 1953 sign that says ‘No Negroes Allowed' and a 2003 sign that says no guns are allowed. They are both based on fear and irrational hatred."
But signs are still the exception in most stores, restaurants, banks and other businesses, especially in small towns.
Some restaurants put signs up during the media publicity when the law passed but have since taken them down, said Tom Day, vice president of Minnesota Hospitality, a dining and lodging association.
"In the long run, their guests were not really asking for them," Day said. "It's largely forgotten about."
There is, however, a much-publicized lawsuit brewing in which some 50 churches argue they should not have to post signs to keep guns away. Under the law, a property owner or police cannot make a gun carrier leave unless there is a sign and verbal notice.
"We hope the state's effort to intrude on religious expression, speech and practice is not allowed to stand," said Erik Strand, pastor of the Edina Community Lutheran Church, which initiated the suit.
The church already had a small victory. While the lawsuit progresses, a state court allowed the church to temporarily post a sign that did not contain the language specified in the law.
Instead of saying the property owner "bans guns in these premises," the church sign borrows from Matthew 5: 9, a Bible verse: "Blessed are the pacemakers. Firearms are prohibited in this place of sanctuary."
But the church has made no headway yet in challenging the part of the law that allows concealed weapons on private parking lots regardless of the owners' wishes. Missouri's law has a similar provision.
Churches are not the only ones testing the law. Some local governments, including Hennepin County in the Twin Cities, are attempting to ban weapons even though the law says guns must be allowed on most public property. A legal showdown is expected.
In Missouri, public entities can ban concealed weapons. Similar to Minnesota, the law also allows public or private employers to prohibit workers from carrying concealed weapons on the job.
Peaceful so far
So far there have been no reported incidents in Minnesota in which a gun-permit holder has shot someone.
But gun opponents seize on one example of why the law is dangerous. A man lost his concealed-carry permit after firing 11 bullets into the hood of his brother's car during an argument. No one was hurt.
While gun opponents concede that was a rare incident, they said making more guns accessible was bound to lead to some deliberate or accidental shootings.
"It's only a matter of time until that happens," said Rebecca Thoman, executive director of a group called Citizens for a Safer Minnesota, which opposed the law.
Minnesota previously had a so-called "may issue" law under which sheriffs could issue concealed-carry permits at their discretion to qualified residents.
Last year 12,780 permits were issued under that law, according to the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. Most of those holders would have to apply for permits under the new law when their one-year permits expired.
Getting permits under the old law was very difficult in urban counties, and gun-rights advocates tried for seven years to pass the broader law in Minnesota, Caile said.
Minnesota, like other states, requires applicants to clear criminal background checks to get permits. Fewer than 1 percent of applicants for permits have been denied so far, records show.
"With every month that goes by," Caile said, "I think people will become more comfortable as they realize that those who cause the problems will never get permits."
To reach Kevin Murphy, call (816) 234-4464 or send e-mail to
Sorta like the signs you used to see in the South that said *White only.*
-archy-/-
I agree with this guy - however, gun owners will vote with their dollars. I suspect that the signs will come down, if there is a drop in revenue.
Because that's what the rats TOLD you to think. Vermont has ALWAYS had a CCW law, no permit needed. How many mass shooting have happened there, hmm?
And their food is lousy.
(My GF's brother recommended it, so we gave it a try, once. Never again.)
"Conceal carry" means the firearm is concealed on your person so that nobody knows it is there.
Which makes me believe this is an incident that never occurred.
Not that a journalist would be above manufacturing a story... (Jason Blair Jason Blair Jason Blair)...
"Conceal carry" means the firearm is concealed on your person so that nobody knows it is there.
Which makes me believe this is an incident that never occurred.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Threw a menu in the waiter's face? Right. Hidden message - gun owners are a bunch of childish jerks.
If I were carrying in a place that prohibited it and were asked to leave, I would do so and take my money with me. Hopefully by that time I'd at least have gotten half a steak in me!
And their food is lousy.
Sounds like a future insurance fire just waiting to happen.
-archy-/-
My answer to signs here in Texas..........Stay Safe !
How did the owner know the customer had a concealed handgun? If the customer was printing, then he was not concealed.
"It's only a matter of time until that happens," said Rebecca Thoman, executive director of a group called Citizens for a Safer Minnesota, which opposed the law.
And why would that be Ms Thomas? Are Minnesotans that much more stupid and irresonsible than people in most other states with CCW law where nothing like that has happened?
That kind of people will never admit that CCW laws save lives and prevent crime, but I'm very glad that now MO and MN have decided to just ignore the idiots and do the right thing. Now if they would just give GA permits reciprocity I wouold be even gladder.
How did the owner know the customer had a concealed handgun? If the customer was printing, then he was not concealed.
Nothing in Minnesota law requires that it be concealed.
Adding, "I felt much safer back when I didn't have to think about the gang members who were carrying concealed weapons in the Mall of America. I liked being a mindless and helpless sheep."
What's wrong with Florida or Texas?
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