'Made in U.S.A.' label harder to find as jobs move overseas

al.com ^ | 8/24/03 | cp124

[jpsb]

What you buy is your decsion, however it is the responcibility of the governement to see to it that what you buy was not made in a sweat shop by child labors, nor was it made by a monpolly that is fixing prices, nor was in made in a manner that is destructive of the environment. But tose were the old rules, today anything goes. Which is why hardly anything is made in the USA any more.

[jpsb]

Our biggest problem is that the cost of government in included in the prices of our products via the income tax. Get rid of the damn income tax and US products will dramically drop in price. Tariffs and sales taxes are the way to go.

[fhayek]

I just don't see it that way. America's industrial development occured under many of the conditions you describe (child labor, harmful to the environment, etc.). We have chosen to change those conditions, other nations have not made those decisions yet. They would say, what right do we have to dictate to them how to run their affairs. (Just as we would say to them). If you are concerned about it, don't buy their products. That is your choice. But I should have the right to make my decision based upon my values. Your approach sounds oddly socialistic.

[templar]

Tariffs and sales taxes are the way to go.

Absolutely. In the US, even our social security tax is a part of the real cost of goods sold, since it diminishes 'take home' wages (requiring higher wages to offset the deduction) and is also placed on business (the employer pays an amount equal to the worker). And this tax (only one of so many hidden taxes) is figured in to every level of production from raw materials to transportation to manufacture at every level. I have no idea exactly what the overall amount of hidden taxes in our products is, but I'm guessing in the 30 - 40 percent range. We have just too much going against us to compete in production with the third world lifestyle. We cannot compete while exporting our tax burden in the cost of our procucts.

[thtr]

”Either we believe in free-market capitalism or we don't. Capitalism is sometimes cruel, but it is the best chance we have. .”

The problem is that the global economy is not a free market economy. Japan, China, India, Europe, Middle East and (believe it or not) even Africa all have tariffs (or federal law) which protect their businesses from competition from America. Capitalism can indeed sometimes be cruel to workers – but democracy can also sometimes be cruel to business.

[jpsb]

I disagree, you should not have the right to support child labor or monpollies or practices that are distructive to the environment by your purchase of an offending product. I also do not think you should be allowed to buy stolen goods either. And I am perfectly willing to impose my views by force of law.

[jpsb]

Your approach sounds oddly socialistic

Whatever, but my approach is the approach outlined in the Constitution. So I guess the Constitution is a socailist document huh?

[scottlang]

Free trade is a double edge sword. If other countries can make products cheaper than the United States can (because of cheap labor), then it is futile to try to compete with that. If Americans can buy these products cheaper, they will spend their savings on other products, improving both their standard of living and helping to create other jobs elsewhere.

Your standard of living will not improve if you have a hard time affording the basics. When the good paying jobs go overseas.

[fhayek]

I guess you have no problem with the Kyoto Accords then?

[Dane]

Whatever, but my approach is the approach outlined in the Constitution. So I guess the Constitution is a socailist document huh?

No not at all, but the Constitution also doesn't state your goal of putting a gun up to the head of Wal-Mart shoppers, who are looking for a the best bang for their buck.

[fhayek]

One thing that China has in abundance is cheap labor. This is a fact that cannot be changed by any amount of tariffs or quotas. Consumers in America, and in other countries will demand low cost goods, all other things being equal. America should compete in those areas where it has an advantage.

[jpsb]

I do not have a problem with the princible of protecting the environment, but I do not think Kyoto made even a half way serious attempt at that.

[jpsb]

Sure it does, read it sometime.

I do believe that somewhere it mentions what the federal government can and not not do. And if I am not mistaken the federal government can put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, after due process of course. I also pretty sure that the federal government is allowed to regulate commerce and impose tariffs.

[jpsb]

"One thing that China has in abundance is cheap labor. This is a fact that cannot be changed by any amount of tariffs"

Wrong again, this is exactly what tariffs can change. If China gains a 30% advantange using low cost slave labor then a 30% tariff eliminates that advantage! It effectively raises the cost of Chinesse labor! Pretty cool huh?

[maui_hawaii]

Preach it to the Chinese. Everyone else is supposed to do what they want, and can interfere and subsidize as they please, but we have to tie our own hands. Forget that.

Capitalism can be cruel, and it should be more cruel to them than us.

[Dane]

I do believe that somewhere it mentions what the federal government can and not not do. And if I am not mistaken the federal government can put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, after due process of course. I also pretty sure that the federal government is allowed to regulate commerce and impose tariffs

Well why don't you go up to your local "evil" Wal-Mart and stand at the entrance and put a gun up to the consumers who wish to shop there.

According to you, it is okey dokey by the Constitution.

Of course you will be back on FR saying how the "pigs"(police officers) stopped you in your tracks, yada, yada, yada.

Your rhetoric is old, deranged, and pompous.

But what the hey, you revel in your role as a keyboard commando.

[fhayek]

Wrong again, this is exactly what tariffs can change. If China gains a 30% advantange using low cost slave labor then a 30% tariff eliminates that advantage! It effectively raises the cost of Chinesse labor! Pretty cool huh?

Uh, no. It only does that in this country. While we do this, Chinese manufacturers would be blissfully taking away market share from American manufactures in other countries. Your approach is a "head-in-the-sand" approach.

[jpsb]

As usual Dane craps on other tread. I am surprised you have not be banned Dane. You contribute NOTHING ever, just jump into a debate and crap all over it. This by the way is behavior one tends to associate with a troll.

I am not at all suprised to see you on the side of child labor, monpolies and crapping on the environment.

[palmer]

If you are concerned about it, don't buy their products. That is your choice. But I should have the right to make my decision based upon my values. Your approach sounds oddly socialistic.

And yours sounds oddly unpatriotic. Your $2 savings that you value so much could be used to employ an American worker and thus have a ripple effect in our economy. In your theoretical world you would invest the $2 saved in U.S. productive enterprises. But in the real world you'll just spend it on more Chinese crap.

The bottom line is your approach is just rationalized laziness. It's easier to buy all your crap at Walmart in one trip rather than take the time to find smaller businesses that sell American made goods. The rest of us will make up for the lost tax revenue as you slowly squeeze Americans out of higher paying jobs.

[maui_hawaii]

If America imports from elsewhere, other than China, we will be far better off.

For every dollar we import from China, we export about 15 cents. With Mexico the dynamic is for every dollar we import, we export about 75 cents.

Its not perfect, but it is FAR better.

If China stops their currency peg, and other forms of subsidies, then their prices will be at least on par with Mexico. When you take into account geography, Mexico will be a FAR better investment. We get cheap stuff AND we export, unlike now.